Eastern Syriac Rite Churches: Common Saints and Important writings?

[LastMinute]

So by “Eastern Rite” i’m really just addressing the Chaldeans (a group i’ve never seen on a non-Chaldean message board, but with CAF who knows) and the Syro-Malabars (who i occasionally see in certain online venues).

I know aside from a veneration of the Apostle Thomas, most of the Syro-Malabar Saints i’ve seen are relatively “young” (1800s and onward). I always wanted to know though if there is any devotional linkage to any of the Chaldean Saints that the Chaldean Catholic Church/Assyrian Church of the East honors.

The only ones that would make sense to me is Jude Thaddeus and St. Ephrem. But if there are any others i’d love to hear about it.

Also - aside from St. Ephrem whose written work looms large across all Eastern Churches and into the West, have there been any other important devotional writers or theologians that the Chaldeans or the Syro-Malabars look to?

Its easy to pick out the intellectual lineage for the Byzantine Churches, because debating those ideas with the West has been a good part of Catholic and Orthodox history.

When one looks at Syriac Christianity (or Ethiopian and Coptic Christianity) things start to get a little more…opaque… for those not familair with the region.

 

[Elvis_George]

Theologians would be:
The Greek Teachers:
Mar Nestorious
Mar Theodore
Mar Disdore
Other Greek theologians:
Mar Theoderet
Mar John of Chrystosom (Basically any Antiochian theologian)
Middle Eastern Theologians:
Mar Issac of Nineveh
Mar Gabriel of Qatar
Mar Babbai the Great
Mar Abdisho
Indian:
Mar Placid Podiapara
Martyrs (sahadanmar):
Mar Geevarghese Sahada (St George)
Marth(a) Shmooni and her 7 children (Solomonia)
Mar Kuriakose sahada and Marth Yulithi (Cyril and Jullietta)
Marth Meskenta
Mar Hormis Sahada
Mar Shemon Bar Sabbae
Mar Qardagh
Mar Abdecalas
Mar Yohannan Sulaqa
Indian:
Mar Ickacko
Mar Antony
Mar Joseph Kariattil
Mar Joseph Sulaqa (you can call it a bloodless martrydom)
Monks:
Rabban Mar Hormzid
Abraham the Great
Abda of Hira
Patriarch-Catholicos:
Mar Aba I
Missionaries:
Mar Zaia
Mar Sabor and Mar Proth
Modern saints:
Indian:
Marth Euphrasia
Marth Alphonsa
Mar Kuriakose Elias Chavara
Mar Augustine Thevanparambil (Kunjuchan)
and alot more…
Assyrian:
don’t know much, besides Mar Abimalek Timotheus

 

[LastMinute]

WOW! Well first, thank you for the response @Elvis_George, i wasn’t even sure CAF had a Syro-Malabaran around given the sheer amount of Byzantines and Byzantine topics on the board.

Let me try to unravel what you’ve presented me with:

The Greeks are mostly recognizable and shared by the Byzantines and the Western Church for the most part. Well except Nestorious himself. And i recognize the Antiochians, except Mar Disdore. I’m assuming Mar Theodore is Theodore of Mopsusetia.

Issach of Nineveh is immediately recognizable - he’s always been a big name in the Eastern and Western Syriac Rite.

Gabriel of Qatar i know is referenced by the Chaldeans as is Babbai and Mar Abdisho. And Rabban Mar Hormzid and Mar Qardagh too.

Hmm… interesting your church reverences Cyril and Julietta. And Marth Shmooni/Solomonia that seems rather uncommon to me at least.

Whooboy… a lot of Indian Saints , well time to learn something new!

By the way - are there any particular saints that the Syro-Malabaran faithful have strong devotions to? The Western tends to go with a crop of some universally acknowledged saints such as Padre Pio, Therese of Liseiux, St. Francis, and St. Patrick.

The Maronites have a particularly strong connection to St. Charbel, and a lot of the Ukranians and Russians (among other Greek-inspired churches) i’ve met have a fondness for the wonderworker St. Seraphim of Sarov.

 

[Alexandria2020]

Elvis George has given a good list. @Elvis_George for Chaldeans and Syro-Malabarians… Our history prior to the 16th century goes back to the Church of the East.

Realistically speaking, the average Malabarian Catholic is heavily latinized. So much so most of them in Kerala, India call themselves “RC”. The Church has split into 2 factions, pro-Latin and pro-Oriental. Thankfully Rome has always been supportive of thr pro-Oriental branch.

There are a minority of traditional Oriental laity in the SMC church and they honor many of the people listed in Elvis’s list. Such as Babai the Great, Isaac of Nineveh, or Rabban Mar Hormzid. Many of them even consider Joseph Kariattil a saint (even tho not canonized by Rome )- he has a Wikipedia page now I believe. There’s even a smaller minority group within this faction that wishes to separate from Rome and make the Malabar Church an autocephalous church like the Orthodox.

From 1st Sunday of Annunciation (last Sunday ) to Palm Sunday we are to use the Anaphora of Theodore. But since the SMC has split into 2 factions - only a minority of dioceses follow through w that Synod rule. So that’s the situation in SMC.

 

[Alexandria2020]

are there any particular saints that the Syro-Malabaran faithful have strong devotions to?

Of course Mary. In India I notice many laity have a strong devotion to St Sebastian, St Jude and St George. St Therese of Lisieux has a strong devotion and she’s called "Kochu Thresia " for Little Therese. And since they got canonized Sts Alphonsa and Chavara are popular as well.

 

[LastMinute]

Realistically speaking, the average Malabarian Catholic is heavily latinized. So much so most of them in Kerala, India call themselves “RC”

You know i’ve only been to one SMC, almost decade ago now, somewhere in the Bronx in NYC. But i do recall thinking to myself that for an “Eastern Catholic” Church, its service and surroundings looked pretty latinized when i was comparing in my head to the Syro-Malankarans (who because of a variety of different reasons i have more experience with). I always assumed that was more of an outcome of being in America than anything else, but it appears my assumption was wrong.

The Church has split into 2 factions, pro-Latin and pro-Oriental. Thankfully Rome has always been supportive of thr pro-Oriental branch.

Are these splits historical (as in going back hundreds of years into the past?) or are they more recent?

There’s even a smaller minority group within this faction that wishes to separate from Rome and make the Malabar Church an autocephalous church like the Orthodox.

Whooboy. That reminds me of a time when a Greek Orthodox friend of mine visited Mt. Athos to discover, at the time at least, a monastery or two who had broken off from the others and possibly the rest of the Orthodox Community because of a matter of “true Orthodoxy”.

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut @Alexandria2020

 

[LastMinute]

Of course Mary. In India I notice many laity have a strong devotion to St Sebastian, St Jude and St George. St Therese of Lisieux has a strong devotion and she’s called "Kochu Thresia " for Little Therese. And since they got canonized Sts Alphonsa and Chavara are popular as well.

Oh i always assume Mary and Joseph are strongly venerated anywhere that isn’t a Protestant church.

St. Alphonsa and St. Chavara are understandable as well given the connection to the community.

I’m surprised by St. George though.

 

[Alexandria2020]

Are these splits historical (as in going back hundreds of years into the past?) or are they more recent?

I think it’s historical as over the years both clergy and laity got latinized. Thanks to Rome. But Rome recognizes her mistake and wants to make the church return to it’s East Syriac roots. Pope Pius XII insisted on the church employing the Anaphoras of Theodore and Nestorius.

It got even more complicated after V2 I think as the Archeparchy of Ernakulam (archbishop of 60s/70s) started doing the Holy Qurbana like the Ordinary form. So priest facing the people and editing out many parts etc.

 

[Alexandria2020]

I’m surprised by St. George though

I think he always had a strong fan following in the Syriac churches. He’s called Mar Geevarghese Sahada in Syriac and the name Geevarghese or Varghese has became a common name among St Thomas Christians. Even the Oriental Orthodox laity (Malankara Orthodox & Jacobite Orthodox ) have a strong devotion to him.

 

[abinjoy]

another syro malabar here

 

[Alexandria2020]

Are these splits historical (as in going back hundreds of years into the past?) or are they more recent?

Now that I think about it, many people blame it on Rome bcs Rome created 3 separate vicariates in the late 19th century which are archeparchies now. They were independent of each other. While a Major archbishop and Synod uniting the 3 archeparchies was only erected in 1992. So this automatically created various factions within the church. Many traditionalist SMCs argue Rome did a “divide and rule” policy there.

 

[LastMinute]

another syro malabar here

LOL - it seems i’m catching them all in this thread.

Or to paraphrase one of my Dominican friends “Dang man, look at them SMCs… they roll deep man.”

Thanks for reaching out.

 

[LastMinute]

Now that I think about it, many people blame it on Rome bcs Rome created 3 separate vicariates in the late 19th century which are archeparchies now. They were independent of each other. While a Major archbishop and Synod uniting the 3 archeparchies was only erected in 1992. So this automatically created various factions within the church. Many traditionalist SMCs argue Rome did a “divide and rule” policy there.

I know that people always like to say that the Vatican takes a “long term” view of things… If what you say is true about the three vicariates, that was some pretty bad short-term thinking.

 

[Elvis_George]

There’s even a smaller minority group within this faction that wishes to separate from Rome and make the Malabar Church an autocephalous church like the Orthodox.

Yes, that is very true Alexandria!. Generally, Mar Babai, Mar Issac of Nineveh, and Mar Gabriel’s writings are used for theology and stuff but besides that, they are generally forgotten. Mar Kuriakose sahada,Mar Simeon Bar Sabbae and, Martha Shmooni still have feast days dedicated to them but eventually became uncommon. Mar Sabor and Mar Proth were condemned as heretics (even though they weren’t) in the synod of diamper and all churches dedicated to them were renamed to “All Saints” or “St Gevarsis and St Prothasias.” I still pray to them though. I wish we can revive the veneration of the 2 saints. Another saint who suffered such a state is Rabban Mar Hormzid. When Mar Abraham came to India, he established a cathedral in his name. However, the Portuguese rededicated the church to Mar Hormis Sahada. Unlike Mar Sabor and Mar Proth, Rabban Mar Hormzid is a very important saint to the Chaldean Catholics so veneration to him is not unseen. While the church is still dedicated to Mar Hormis Sahada, icons of Rabban Mar Hormzid can still be seen in the Church…

 

[LastMinute]

Mar Sabor and Mar Proth were condemned as heretics (even though they weren’t) in the synod of diamper

What caused them to be condemned? Or rather, what was the reasoning given for their condemnation.

…Rabban Mar Hormzid …

Oh yes, quite familiar with Mar Hormzid through them. I know the Chaldean Catholics have been waging a campaign to get some of the Church of the East Saints formally recognized, although i don’t recall what happened to that attempt.

 

[Elvis_George]

What caused them to be condemned? Or rather, what was the reasoning given for their condemnation.

The Portuguese assumed that #1- Nestorians were heretics and number #2- that all those who were persian were nestorian…

 

[LastMinute]

The Portuguese assumed that #1- Nestorians were heretics and number #2- that all those who were persian were nestorian…

You know, if the Church had just been a little more ahead of the curve in terms of triaging cultural issues… . I say this coming from another culture that has had a heap of misunderstandings with the Europeans.

Ah well, thank you for that plethora of information, it really helped me get a better feel for the linkages the SMC has with the Chaldeans and the Syrians.

 

[edward_george1]

Quran is very clear on Nestorianism

I’m not sure why a Christian would want to get his Christology from the Quran. Are you sure you’re not Muslim?

Flagged.

 

[LastMinute]

I see, even in the dying days of CAF - somethings never change.

The last time i was here, more than a a decade ago - there would always be someone coming out of the woodwork.

One of those “i wonder” thoughts just came to me. I wonder why CAF could never attract any Shi’ite Muslims. As comparative religious point, we probably have more in common with them in terms of structure and approach to faith than the Sunnis.

I’ve also found that the Iranians (whether Iranian-American, Iranian, etc.) are…less inclined to play these type of games.

 

[LastMinute]

Also, one half of my family is Catholic and the other is Russian Orthodox if you are going to start on about Orthodox/Catholic relationships and you are presenting some very bizarre versions of the fall of Constantinople to say the least.

Now that is an interesting breakdown. Pleasure to make your acquaintance Jharek. Interesting handle by the way, its reminisicent of a character in of fantasy writer Michael Moorcock’s books.

Just couldn’t help but ask - is it your parents (one catholic, one Russian orthodox) or did you marry someone in the Russian Orthodox faith. of the Byzantine crowd, its been them and the Ukranians i’ve interacted with the most.