Eastern view of Purgatory

[Ghosty]

But why my friend mousquetaire Alaskian why did you not stop with that - we don’t know.

This is unclear to me why Roman Catolics always must not accept lack of understanding - why cannot accept that all is not known to believers. Instead - make up places, rules and dogmas so can tell world that everything know and understand. This is odd form of intellectual pride. This kind scholasticism so much revered by Catolics but only in many cases only pompous “definitions” which make them happy - at least this is how I see this tendency of Roman Catolics to always have to have complete explanation - even if requires making things up.

The only dogma on this issue is that there is a purging of sins after death, and that the dead benefit from our prayers and good works here in this life. Everything else is merely theological speculation, and it varies from Roman Catholic to Roman Catholic. You will find the same kind of theological speculation among Eastern Orthodox, one example being the “toll houses” on the way to Heaven, another being that the fiery Love of God burns away our impurities. These are no more than Eastern Orthodox theological speculations over the exact same dogma, namely that the dead are purified and benefit from our actions, so it’s not fair at all to say that the Roman tradition is unusual in its degree of theological speculation.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Aramis]

But why my friend mousquetaire Alaskian why did you not stop with that - we don’t know.

This is unclear to me why Roman Catolics always must not accept lack of understanding - why cannot accept that all is not known to believers. Instead - make up places, rules and dogmas so can tell world that everything know and understand. This is odd form of intellectual pride. This kind scholasticism so much revered by Catolics but only in many cases only pompous “definitions” which make them happy - at least this is how I see this tendency of Roman Catolics to always have to have complete explanation - even if requires making things up.

It’s a holdover of Roman (as in the Pagan Empire) thought, versus the Byzantine thought, that created different theological traditions in those who came into the faith.

Also, it is supported by biblical texts, and Holy Tradition.

(By the way musketeer is the normal English spelling for мушкетер. )

 

[Volodymyr]

Theological speculation among Eastern Orthodox, one example being the “toll houses” on the way to Heaven,\

Peace and God bless!

This is confusing I do not know English “toll house” which seems to be a kind of cookie. Perhaps you are referring to мытарства or mytarstva which are based on vision of Feodor, disciple of St. Vasilij the New. Such mystical vision of 20 places (perhaps called houses) where dead are judged - here dead are judged regarding a “passion or vice” at each mytarstva - like laziness, envy, avarice. etc. This is not so much theological concept as it is only from a vision of such mystical fellow. You can read about them under Life of St. Vasilij the New and his disciple Theodore. Are such what you call “toll house”. I think these are more simple pious descriptions of judgement of dead - based on such an old vision. Speculation seems to profound a word for these things more like obstacles on way to Heaven or Hell.

Do you have different understanding of mytarstva or is “toll house” some other thing which I cannot understanding having to do with biscuits?

Apologize, some such theological words are difficult to translate, I understand. But my English/Russian dictionaries do not help with such word.

But my impression of Purgatoire is that it is not just pious vision for Catolics- but something believed in so can be heretic if don’t believe such thing. It must be believed as only explanation - not just possible explanation of how All Powerful God deals with dead.

http://profi-rus.by.ru/pravoslavie/text/m-feodora/images/image001.jpg

 

[Spirithound]

But my impression of Purgatoire is that it is not just pious vision for Catolics- but something believed in so can be heretic if don’t believe such thing. It must be believed as only explanation - not just possible explanation of how All Powerful God deals with dead.

Well yes, Purgatoire must be believed in, but the Catholic Church does not say what it “looks” like, or “where” it is, only that there is a cleansing after death.

 

[Aramis]

The Toll House theory is an expression of St. Fyodor’s vision.

A toll house is a place of being stopped for some fee (сбор) or deprivation (лишать). The cookies are somehow related to this type of place.

The Catholic requisite belief (dogmatic belief) in Purgatory is that not all are admitted to heaven directly, and not all condemned eternally to hell who don’t make it to heaven immediately.

Roman Catholic Doctrine* is that Purgatory includes “cleansing as if by fire”… but that is not dogma, and is not imposed on other autonomous churches in union with rome.

• (Doctrine varies slightly with particular churches, more widely on some issues, and while it need not be believed by all, it may not be taught otherwise by the faithful of that particular church)

 

[Ghosty]

Volodymyr: Aramis already explained it better than I could, but I’ll throw in my own words.

If you look at the dogma of Purgatory we are only required to believe that there is a cleansing after death for some souls, and that our prayers help them. That is the whole requirement of belief, and to disagree with that would be heresy. Obviously this is the same belief as the Eastern Orthodox.

The various descriptions of Purgatory, for example how does this cleansing occur, are merely pious depictions not unlike the mystical vision you described. In fact, the most famous depiction of Purgatory, that of Dante, is that Purgatory is a mountain we must climb, overcoming our own sins by tests along the way, until at the top we reach the Garden of Eden and must make a choice to remain in the Garden, or to reach even higher and join God in Heaven.

Such a vision of Purgatory is almost never brought up in these discussions, but it’s just as valid as a place of fire, as far as Catholic dogma goes. It would also be permitted for us to believe the vision of St. Fyodor, as his understanding also fits the dogma of Purgatory.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Volodymyr]

St. Fyodor, as his understanding also fits the dogma of Purgatory.

!

Thank you much for your understanding, friend Ghosty. These mytarstva is subject which I have not read too much about. But I have also made error - I mistranslated the name of this person (человек) - which for us is man or woman - as Feodor - but she was Blessed St. Feodora (Theodora) of Constantinople, a lady dsciple of Blessed St. Vasilij the New. I am sorry to have misled you. If you believe such a vision seems like Purgatoire to you - okay. Since Purgatoire seems to be so little - who can know what “cleansing” of a soul means. Also who can believe such details about diavols and angels at each mytarstvo. However I think most Orthodox do not place much belief in this old vision. I have found such a view expressed in English (not mine):

“Feodora dream” is, after all, only a dream, and that all the elements of it are purely metaphorical. Indeed, the “toll-houses” should be considered a metaphor for one’s own conscience

 

[Perogi]

The Russian orthodox view of Purgatory is different than Roman Catholic!

The Catholics teach Purgatory as a state of LIMBO!!! Another words a waiting place of nothing until you have qualify to enter heaven!!

Orthodox christian believe that in Purgatory **you suffer hell like experiences **of fire and brimstone until you have forfilled heavenly requirements!

bible.ca/catholic-vs-orthodox.htm

 

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

The Russian orthodox view of Purgatory is different than Roman Catholic!

The Catholics teach Purgatory as a state of LIMBO!!! Another words a waiting place of nothing until you have qualify to enter heaven!!
bible.ca/catholic-vs-orthodox.htm

Uhm, no we don’t. Catholics don’t even believe Purgatory is a place; it is a state, and it is not “nothing” - you are purged until you are perfected to be able to appear before the Living God.

 

[Dorothy]

Uhm, no we don’t. Catholics don’t even believe Purgatory is a place; it is a state, and it is not “nothing” - you are purged until you are perfected to be able to appear before the Living God.

That is exactly what I thought after reading that poster’s remarks.

 

[Perogi]

What I mean’t is

Russian orthodox believe before going to heaven or hell your sins must be purged or blotted out in a Purgatory where hellish experiences occur! If this Blotting out process is successful your soul will enter the Heavenly kingdom of God!

If on the hand this Purging process of sins is not successful your soul will enter Hell!

As far as Limbo is concerned the **Pope has dropped **the doctrine of Limbo!

associatedcontent.com/article/228997/the_churchs_view_about_being_in_limbo.html?cat=34

 

[Ora_et_Labora_1]

Limbo, from what I understand, was thought up to deal with the problem of infants who died before baptism, or something of the sort. I think it stemmed from some distorted Augustinian view.

 

[Subrosa]

The Russian orthodox view of Purgatory is different than Roman Catholic!

The Catholics teach Purgatory as a state of LIMBO!!! Another words a waiting place of nothing until you have qualify to enter heaven!!

Orthodox christian believe that in Purgatory **you suffer hell like experiences **of fire and brimstone until you have forfilled heavenly requirements!

bible.ca/catholic-vs-orthodox.htm

You are linking to a hugely anti-catholic anti-orthodox website. This should be your first clue. Both statements are wrong.

Limbo was merely a hypothesis and has recently been dropped completely. The Orthodox have no concept of suffering in a between state, but do believe in a between state.

Sub

 

[Dorothy]

You are linking to a hugely anti-catholic anti-orthodox website. This should be your first clue. Both statements are wrong.

Limbo was merely a hypothesis and has recently been dropped completely. The Orthodox have no concept of suffering in a between state, but do believe in a between state.

Sub

You are correct. Limbo was speculative theology, never a teaching, and it had to do with infants who died before Baptism.

Anti-Catholic sites do nothing but spew misinformation about Catholic teaching.

 

[jimmy]

Volodymyr: Aramis already explained it better than I could, but I’ll throw in my own words.

If you look at the dogma of Purgatory we are only required to believe that there is a cleansing after death for some souls, and that our prayers help them. That is the whole requirement of belief, and to disagree with that would be heresy. Obviously this is the same belief as the Eastern Orthodox.

This seems to be a little reductionist. It ignores the satisfaction side of purgatory. The whole concept of purgatory, along with indulgences, is based on retributive justice. It is based on the idea that certain sins must be punished. It is not simply cleansing. This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Purgatory.

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him “to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow” until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the “land of promise” (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God’s enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

Not only is purgatory a cleansing, it is a punishment for sins committed but forgiven. Indulgences fit in here as well. They are for the satisfaction of the temporal punishment due to sin. If it was simply a question of cleansing then why would a plenary indulgence require that you not be attached to sin? The prerequisite is that you are cleansed.

 

[Dave_in_Dallas]

This seems to be one area of (Roman) Catholic doctrine that is developing over time… I recall that Pope Benedict XVI has said some interesting comments on it in the past…

It isn’t punishment from God per se, but is a result of our own attachment to teh material world…

Catholic Catechsim:
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."85

 

[Ghosty]

This seems to be a little reductionist. It ignores the satisfaction side of purgatory. The whole concept of purgatory, along with indulgences, is based on retributive justice. It is based on the idea that certain sins must be punished. It is not simply cleansing. This is from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Purgatory.

I gave the actual dogma of Purgatory, you are talking about theological opinions about that dogma.

Furthermore, if you read the Canons in question that are quoted by the article you’ll see that “punishment” carries a much different meaning in Latin theology then is assumed by such terms as “retributive justice”. For example, voluntary fasting, prayer, and almsgiving is referred to as “temporal punishment for sin” in those Canons of Trent (specifically Session 14, Canon 13). Obviously a voluntary act of mercy and charity taken on my part in no way falls under any category of “retributive justice”, yet it is defined as a “temporal punishment for sin” just the same (another example is that remorse for sin is called a punishment in the Summa Theologiae).

The reason for this is obvious if one studies Latin and Latin theology in general, rather than merely English translations. There are connotations that come with terms like “temporal punishment” in English that don’t fit the Latin understanding. Retribution has no part of it, at least not in terms of those who are Saved (which includes those in Purgation); the Damned obviously potentially fall into a different category.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Norval]

Pope JPII explained Purgatory as necessary as we are called “to be perfectlike the heavenly Father during our earthly life…so we are able to stand sound and flawless before God the Father”, so we probably require a purification which the faith of the Church states in the doctrine of Purgatory. As a side comment there is in Rome a neo gothic church named the “Sacred Heart of Suffrage”. In a room off the sacristy known as the Little Museum of Purgatory, there is a collection of objects bearing impressive bits of evidence from souls in Purgatory. As to what occurs at our Particular Judgment and or how it occurs is a very interesting subject. I am sure we will know all about it when we get there.
God Bless You on your Journey! Norval