Eastern views on the family of Jesus

[Pons]

I’m not contesting the perpetual virginity of Mary. I’d like to know how the East interprets Jesus’ other family relationships.

Was James his stepbrother (son of Joseph) or “cousin” (son of Alphaeus/Clopas/Cleophas and probably “the other” Mary - see below)? Simon, who suceeded James as bishop of Jerusalem, was the son of Cleophas, according to a Church Father (Eusebius)?).

Is James the bishop the same as James the Less, son of Alphaeus? Is Judas the same as Jude Thaddeus? Is Simon the same as Simon the Zealot? (Probably not, I reckon - some apologists go too far).

• Is “Mary the mother of James and Joses/Joseph”, the “other Mary”, “Mary of Clopas”? Is she the “sister” of the Blessed Mother? (In my view, yes.)
• Is Clopas the same as Alphaeus? (I’ve read it was the same name, Halpai, transliterated differently).
• How many Marys were there at the cross? (Women: Mother Mary, Mary Magdalene, the other Mary, and Salome) Three or four? I ask this because I have sometimes seen Salome called “Mary Salome”, as ? In this harmonizing scheme James and John are (also) Jesus’s cousins - that’s why they want the “special places”.
• Finally, did Joseph the carpenter remain virgin like Mary, or a widower (father of James)?

At least none of this is dogma (correct use?), so there’s room for honest error.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

The harmonizing with the Desposynoi being cousins of the Lord is the invention of St. Jerome in the 4th century.

The East, without an exception I know among the early Fathers in the East, hold to the ancient belief of a widowed Joseph and his sons James, etc., a belief first attested in the second century.

 

[Aramis]

The harmonizing with the Desposynoi being cousins of the Lord is the invention of St. Jerome in the 4th century.

The East, without an exception I know among the early Fathers in the East, hold to the ancient belief of a widowed Joseph and his sons James, etc., a belief first attested in the second century.

And supported as well by the infancy “gospels”… much of which is also in Tradition. (Some parts are not… like the clay birds and other childhood miracles.)

And while the infancy “gospels” are not part of Canon, they do show the “popular mind” of the second and third centuries, with a widower Joseph taking the child-virgin Mary.

 

[prodromos]

Salome, the wife of Zebedee and mother of James and John, is one of Joseph’s daughters and older step-sister of Jesus. Matthew 20:20-21 makes a lot more sense when you understand that only an older sister would have the boldness to ask what she does.

John

 

[Pons]

Thanks, everyone, for the replies, especially about Salome. That’s neat. It seems one really misses out a lot about the Church if you only go by English. Too bad about uncritical Protestants…

So, Joseph sired at least James with another wife. But what about “Mary the mother of James and Joses” in the Passion accounts? Are this people named “James and Joses” different from “James and Joses” in Mark 6:3?

Mark 6:3 (for easy reference)

Is he not the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?

Of course, none of them are said to be sons of Mary too here.

Eusebius on Simon (Wikipedia):

After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord [took] counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph.

Isn’t this Simon the same as Simon in Mark 6:3?

Eusebius on Judas (Wikipedia again, agh):

Of the family of the Lord there were still living the grandchildren of Jude, who is said to have been the Lord’s brother according to the flesh.

Perhaps he was related to Mary, just not her son?

 

[prodromos]

Thanks, everyone, for the replies, especially about Salome. That’s neat. It seems one really misses out a lot about the Church if you only go by English. Too bad about uncritical Protestants…

So, Joseph sired at least James with another wife. But what about “Mary the mother of James and Joses” in the Passion accounts? Are this people named “James and Joses” different from “James and Joses” in Mark 6:3?

Some of the Church Fathers state that this is Mary the Theotokos and that is the view I hold. Obviously Mary was there at the cross and as there is no term for step-brother or step-sister in Hebrew and Aramaic, neither is there a term for step-mother, so Mary would rightly be called the mother of James and Joses as the betrothed of Joseph their father.

John

 

[Ahlman]

Where were Joseph’s children when he went with Mary to Bethlehem and then fled to Egypt after the birth of Jesus?

 

[Aramis]

Where were Joseph’s children when he went with Mary to Bethlehem and then fled to Egypt after the birth of Jesus?

non-canonical sources say yes.

 

[MarigoldK]

Though the Bible says that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem where Jesus was born, Mary being a young girl on her way to becoming a mother for the first time, her own mother Anne must have accompanied her, though the Bible does not mention it.

It must be understood that the Bible focuses only on the life of Jesus and those immediately connected with him. Other details are left out.

 

[prodromos]

Where were Joseph’s children when he went with Mary to Bethlehem and then fled to Egypt after the birth of Jesus?

The Coptic tradition states that James accompanied them to Egypt as is depicted in their icons of the flight into Egypt.

John

 

[prodromos]

Though the Bible says that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem where Jesus was born, Mary being a young girl on her way to becoming a mother for the first time, her own mother Anne must have accompanied her, though the Bible does not mention it.

The grandparents of our Lord, Joachim and Anna, had died years before Mary’s betrothal to Joseph.

John

 

[Pons]

"Me:

But what about “Mary the mother of James and Joses” in the Passion accounts? Are this people named “James and Joses” different from “James and Joses” in Mark 6:3?

Some of the Church Fathers state that this is Mary the Theotokos and that is the view I hold. Obviously Mary was there at the cross and as there is no term for step-brother or step-sister in Hebrew and Aramaic, neither is there a term for step-mother, so Mary would rightly be called the mother of James and Joses as the betrothed of Joseph their father.

Ho! It seems one can’t prove or disprove the perpetual virginity using the Passion account.

Where were Joseph’s children when he went with Mary to Bethlehem and then fled to Egypt after the birth of Jesus?

non-canonical sources say yes.

Yes to what?