Easterners and Ash Wed

[JPayne]

Last year on ash Wednesday one of the physicians I work with came in after his service ( he is Episcopal) with ash on his forehead. My buddy that’s Greek Orthodox tried to wipe it off thinking he had a dirt smuge on his head. Do the Greek Orthodox not participate in this tradition, or was this probably him just not personally being familiar with it? He says he attends services “a few times a year”. When it happened it was pretty funny though to see the look on the doc’s face dodging someone coming at you with a wash rag.

God bless,
Jesse

 

[Milliardo]

Simply put–no, we Orthodox do not have Ash Wednesday. Holy and Great Lent for us starts on Clean Monday.

 

[bpbasilphx]

The custom of the imposition of ashes on the first day of Lent is peculiar to the Roman Church.

Not even the Eastern Catholic churches do so.

 

[Madaglan]

The custom of the imposition of ashes on the first day of Lent is peculiar to the Roman Church.

Not even the Eastern Catholic churches do so.

I believe this to be the general reality.

I know that certain Western Rite Orthodox churches celebrate Ash Wednesday, but I do not know if there is an imposition of ashes.

I also have read that the Maronites celebrate Ash Wednesday (“Ash Monday”), but I do not know if ashes are imposed. Perhaps mardukm or malphono knows.

 

[5Loaves]

Jesse -

Last year on ash Wednesday one of the physicians I work with came in after his service ( he is Episcopal) with ash on his forehead. My buddy that’s Greek Orthodox tried to wipe it off thinking he had a dirt smuge on his head. Do the Greek Orthodox not participate in this tradition, or was this probably him just not personally being familiar with it? He says he attends services “a few times a year”. When it happened it was pretty funny though to see the look on the doc’s face dodging someone coming at you with a wash rag.

God bless,
Jesse

Congratulations, future Catholic!

Byzantine (Russian) Catholics like the Orthodox began Great Lent on Monday. Ashes aren’t part of our tradition, as Milliardo and bpbasilphx have said.

Your story is certainly a reflection of how much American culture has changed. I think when I was growing up in the 1950’s and '60s Greek Orthodox and basically all other non-Catholics in the US, at least in any urban area, would have been aware of imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday even though it was not part of their practice. Yesterday even TV Sky News presenter Kay Burley called the ashes on vice president Joe Biden’s forehead a ‘large bruise’. (She’s a “Catholic” )

I’m heading out the door for Great Compline and final reading of the Great Cannon of St. Andrew of Crete part of our tradition this first week of Great Lent. Wednesday would have been the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts. Personally I felt very well into Lent by yesterday

 

[Madaglan]

Jesse -

Congratulations, future Catholic!

Byzantine (Russian) Catholics like the Orthodox began Great Lent on Monday. Ashes aren’t part of our tradition, as Milliardo and bpbasilphx have said.

Your story is certainly a reflection of how much American culture has changed. I think when I was growing up in the 1950’s and '60s Greek Orthodox and basically all other non-Catholics in the US, at least in any urban area, would have been aware of imposition of ashes on Ash Wednesday even though it was not part of their practice. Yesterday even TV Sky News presenter Kay Burley called the ashes on vice president Joe Biden’s forehead a ‘large bruise’. (She’s a “Catholic” )

I’m heading out the door for Great Compline and final reading of the Great Cannon of St. Andrew of Crete part of our tradition this first week of Great Lent. Wednesday would have been the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts. Personally I felt very well into Lent by yesterday

Funny thing is that a few Wednesdays ago a man came into where I work, and I saw that he had a dark spot on his head. After a quick moment I thought, oh he must have gone to an Ash Wednesday service… Actually though, it was a bruise!

 

[Ghosty]

The Maronites do have Ash Monday. I know this because our Melkite mission has a large Maronite population, and we celebrate Ash Monday (usually on Cheese-fare Sunday since we don’t have access to the church on Monday) to accomodate their customs. I’m almost positive that Ash Monday is a borrowing from the Latin tradition, however, though I don’t know how far back it goes.

Peace and God bless!

 

[JPayne]

Thanks guys, I knew I would get an answer quickly. So, like I said the doc is Episcopal. Besides Western Rite Catholic and Anglican/Episcopal, are there any others that participate in the tradition?

God bless,
Jesse

 

[5Loaves]

Funny thing is that a few Wednesdays ago a man came into where I work, and I saw that he had a dark spot on his head. After a quick moment I thought, oh he must have gone to an Ash Wednesday service… Actually though, it was a bruise!

And that reminds me of the list “You Know You’re Orthodox If…At the end of Holy Week, you have rug burns on your forehead…”
I have rug burns on my forehead tonight.

Our RCIA in my Latin parish did burn our palms Tue. night to add to the ashes our parish had acquired for Ash Wednesday. At another parish in town burning the palms is an event the whole parish does together every year which is as it should be me thinks, followed by their Mardi Gras feast.

 

[malphono]

The Maronites do have Ash Monday. I know this because our Melkite mission has a large Maronite population, and we celebrate Ash Monday (usually on Cheese-fare Sunday since we don’t have access to the church on Monday) to accomodate their customs. I’m almost positive that Ash Monday is a borrowing from the Latin tradition, however, though I don’t know how far back it goes.

Yes, it’s a borrowing (nice way to say latinization ) and dates at least from the 16th century. The service itself is more an adaptation, though, and about the only thing that is a translation of the Latin form is the actual formula of imposition. It’s one of the rare latinizations that I don’t argue against, since it does have a direct scriptural and, by extension, Oriental connection.

Interesting vignette: a few years ago I had to accompany a friend to the ER on Clean Monday and when he saw the ashes on my forehead, the doctor on duty asked if I was Orthodox. As it happens, he was Orthodox (Antiochian) and it was a year where the dates coincided. He ended up explaining Clean Monday to one of the nurses (who had no clue), and from that exchange I had the distinct impression that imposition of ashes is not unknown among at least the Antiochian Orthodox, although I’ve never heard that they actually have the custom.

 

[Madaglan]

And that reminds me of the list “You Know You’re Orthodox If…At the end of Holy Week, you have rug burns on your forehead…”
I have rug burns on my forehead tonight.

Our RCIA in my Latin parish did burn our palms Tue. night to add to the ashes our parish had acquired for Ash Wednesday. At another parish in town burning the palms is an event the whole parish does together every year which is as it should be me thinks, followed by their Mardi Gras feast.

I also wonder where the tradition comes of “burning the palms” to make the ash.

Also, many places in Europe historically did not have access to palms and used (p)ussy willow or other native branches, and I wonder if they would have used these to create the ashes for imposition on Ash Wednesday.

 

[malphono]

I also wonder where the tradition comes of “burning the palms” to make the ash.

Also, many places in Europe historically did not have access to palms and used (p)ussy willow or other native branches, and I wonder if they would have used these to create the ashes for imposition on Ash Wednesday.

I suppose “palm” branches are burned to show continuity, but that’s merely a guess. (Of course the common variety of “palm” fronds used in the US are from the palmetto which isn’t really a palm tree at all. I don’t really know the custom in other places where palm trees are native, but in the Levant olive branches are most commonly used for Hosanna Sunday. As I understand it, the Slav Byzantine custom of using (p)ussy willow is because it’s an early harbinger of spring. In that way, it’s similar to a newly-leafed olive branch.)

It does, though, make an interesting point. In the OT references to ashes in Esther and Jonah, there doesn’t seem to be a prescription for the provenance of the ashes. Perhaps it’s as simple as “ashes are ashes” and given history, the ashes would most likely have been simply from wood.

 

[5Loaves]

I suppose “palm” branches are burned to show continuity, but that’s merely a guess.

I’m sure there is more background on it on the web… but immediately what comes to mind is that because the palm fronds are blessed during Palm Sunday liturgy they, like other blessed objects, or foods, need to be “disposed of” in a special way, usually that is burned, or buried, or for food eaten. We take them home and at some point they need to be disposed of or we’d end up with a whole house full of old fronds. As it is I usually have quite a few in my kitchen all year, including crosses we shape them into. So rather than just burn them at home and then put the ashes in one’s garden, or bury them, it does make sense to burn rather than bury and then use those ashes for Ash Wednesday. It’s kind of both practical and symbolic continuity.

(As I already indicated I think it stinks that my parish buys the ashes instead of making the creation of the ashes a process the parish participates in. The one year we had a temporary priest who did the burning everyone who came loved it. He is Polish and I always tease him that he’s really Byzantine and just doesn’t know it because he does have that kind of sacramental, liturgical approach to life.)

 

[Patchunky]

. As I understand it, the Slav Byzantine custom of using (p)ussy willow is because it’s an early harbinger of spring. In that way, it’s similar to a newly-leafed olive branch.)

Slav Byzantines are not the only ones who use ***** willow branches. You find them used by Roman Catholics in Poland, Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary as well as Germany and Austria…

Hope this helps

 

[Patchunky]

Byzantine (Russian) Catholics like the Orthodox began Great Lent on Monday. Ashes aren’t part of our tradition, as Milliardo and bpbasilphx have said.

Please remember that not ALL Byznatine Catholics are Russian. The Russian Byzantine Catholics are a minority and found mostly in the USA and are Russian in name only.

 

[malphono]

Slav Byzantines are not the only ones who use ***** willow branches. You find them used by Roman Catholics in Poland, Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary as well as Germany and Austria…

Hope this helps

Yeah, I know, and I probably should have said “Slavic and Central European” or something like that. Still, though, I generally associate the (p)ussy willows with Slav Byzantines mainly because they maintain the custom in the US whereas the bulk of the other groups here have adopted the palmetto leaves instead.

 

[5Loaves]

Originally Posted by 5Loaves View Post
Byzantine (Russian) Catholics like the Orthodox began Great Lent on Monday. Ashes aren’t part of our tradition, as Milliardo and bpbasilphx have said.

Forgive me. My intention in writing “Byzantine (Russian) Catholics” in my post was to stipulate that I was speaking as a Russian Byzantine, not for Byzantines. Apparently it sounded to you like I was saying Byzantine Catholics are Russian Catholics, and I can see how it could be read that way. Sorry I wan’t clear.

The Russian Byzantine Catholics are a minority and found mostly in the USA and are Russian in name only.

We are a minority. I’m not sure what you intended by “in name only”. I know in my tiny parish we have a devotion to the Russian heritage of our parish. The readings are proclaimed in Russian every Sunday, and we have prayers in Old Church Slavonic no less than in the Russian Orthodox parish I also go to. For some months now we have several young Russian immigrants who come periodically.

Life in the diaspora is certainly different. At the recent Pan Orthodox Liturgical music workshop Fr Stephan asked the room of around 100 Orthodox attenders, I was the lone Catholic, who was Orthodox in 1978, the time of something he was referring to in his lecture. I’d say 6 hands went up. All the rest were converts to Orthodoxy.

 

[5Loaves]

Off topic… it’s interesting to note that Ash Wednesday is not even a Holy Day of Obligation in the Latin Church and yet the attendance for Ash Wednesday Masses and Prayer services always exceeds that of any other day other than Christmas and Easter, and even more than those services some places. It’s not uncommon for there to be people standing outside the church due to there being no room left inside. My Latin parish had 5 services on Ash Wed.

It’s an interesting phenomena that ashes and Ash Wednesday have that attraction for those Catholics, and probably some non-Catholics in there, who otherwise rarely attend Mass and probably are not following any other practice related to Great Lent. On the EC side, we did have a number of extra people at Forgiveness Sunday.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Last year on ash Wednesday one of the physicians I work with came in after his service ( he is Episcopal) with ash on his forehead. My buddy that’s Greek Orthodox tried to wipe it off thinking he had a dirt smuge on his head. Do the Greek Orthodox not participate in this tradition, or was this probably him just not personally being familiar with it? He says he attends services “a few times a year”. When it happened it was pretty funny though to see the look on the doc’s face dodging someone coming at you with a wash rag.

God bless,
Jesse

For me I think it is highly inappropriate to try and clean off a smudge from someone else. The appropriate thing to do would to be to point out the smudge.

I guess I may place a higher value on personal space than others do.

 

[Ignatios]

I believe this to be the general reality.

I know that certain Western Rite Orthodox churches celebrate Ash Wednesday, but I do not know if there is an imposition of ashes.

I also have read that the Maronites celebrate Ash Wednesday (“Ash Monday”), but I do not know if ashes are imposed. Perhaps mardukm or malphono knows.

Yes, I remember seeing the Maronites in my country with ashes on their forhead, but I forgot what day.
GOD bless you all †††