Easterners, what do YOU believe about the Papacy?

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Trebor135 said:
Perhaps the pope could incorporate into canon law those elements of Vatican II which pertain to the Eastern and Oriental Churches in and out of communion with Rome.
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The canons are already written.

The problem here is the code is maleable. Anything in the code could be re-written or deleted, since the canons are not Conciliar decrees (as in early canons, which have been superseded by the code), they are actually composed by the Curia and approved by the sitting Pope.

If the wind should change direction …
 
Hesychios said:
The canons are already written.

The problem here is the code is maleable. Anything in the code could be re-written or deleted, since the canons are not Conciliar decrees (as in early canons, which have been superseded by the code), they are actually composed by the Curia and approved by the sitting Pope.

If the wind should change direction …
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All true. sigh There seems to be no good solution.
 
Trebor135 said:
Well, if the Catholic hierarchy desires reunion with the Orthodox Churches, it’s going to have to budge on a few matters.
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Catholics will have to “budge” quite a bit, if we decide to become Orthodox. (Of course, Orthodox will have to “budge” quite a bit, if they decide to become Catholic.)
 
Peter_J said:
Catholics will have to “budge” quite a bit, if we decide to become Orthodox. (Of course, Orthodox will have to “budge” quite a bit, if they decide to become Catholic.)
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Well, thank you for confirming that East-West reunion at this stage of the game is absolutely impossible (if we look at the separation from an exclusively naturalistic perspective, at any rate).
 
Trebor135 said:
Well, thank you for confirming that East-West reunion at this stage of the game is absolutely impossible (if we look at the separation from an exclusively naturalistic perspective, at any rate).
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Happy to help. 😉
 
Hesychios said:
The canons are already written.

The problem here is the code is maleable. Anything in the code could be re-written or deleted, since the canons are not Conciliar decrees (as in early canons, which have been superseded by the code), they are actually composed by the Curia and approved by the sitting Pope.

If the wind should change direction …
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Any reunion would have to take place at an ecumenical council, which would produce canons regulating the union, which could not simply be dispensed by a Pope at his whim.

But even so, if the Pope in theory wields universal, immediate, and ordinary power, and purports to exercise it in the would-be Orthodox Catholic churches in violation of the canons laid down at the reunion council, wouldn’t the solution be to break communion with the Pope? i.e., return to what is now the status quo? And if the Pope were unilaterally changing the canons or otherwise violating the reunion council decrees, wouldn’t he be the schismatic, even according to (current) Catholic ecclesiology? I will admit to not understanding Catholic ecclesiology enough to say whether it is even possible for the Pope to be a schismatic (in contrast to a heretic, which apparently the Pope can theoretically be, for example an iconoclast Pope).

In any case, the reunion council, if it were approved by all the bishops of the East and West, and received the assent of the Pope, should be no more dispensable to the Latin Church than the Councils of Nicea or Chalcedon. So that should be guarantee enough that the Pope would not run roughshod over Eastern churches and traditions. And if not, there is always the “emergency exit” of once again severing communion. I don’t think any higher “guarantee” is possible, nor is it sought within the current Orthodox communion; for example, what “guarantees” do you have that the EP won’t attempt to legislate for other churches? (No offense toward the EP intended, just an example.)
 
sasg said:
Any reunion would have to take place at an ecumenical council, which would produce canons regulating the union, which could not simply be dispensed by a Pope at his whim.
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I am just guessing here, but I don’t think reconciliation will come about through one all-encompassing meeting of the minds as a single Council. Most especially because the Latin church has enough bishops and abbots and other voting hierarchs that just putting them together in one place would swamp the proceedings.

In other words … if two groups meet in a binding assembly with one group having 3000 members while the other has 450, there will not even be dialog necessary. Just one vote and it’s all over, the smaller group would never agree to that ‘steamroller’ kind of Council.

Likely selected representatives of both parties will meet and hammer out some kind of agreement, which would go back to both parties separately for review and possible ratification in their own assemblies convened at a separate time and place. The back and forth could take years.

We have not even come close yet, all the dialog so far for the last forty years has been mostly discussing terminology and describing beliefs. The danger that we could be talking passed one another is huge. Once we really understand one another there is a great big process of sorting out what can be compromised on from what can not.

Then, after the inevitable impasse, everyone will go back and see if maybe they didn’t actually mis-understand one another after all …

I think it will take many decades, if ever.
 
Hesychios said:
I am just guessing here, but I don’t think reconciliation will come about through one all-encompassing meeting of the minds as a single Council. Most especially because the Latin church has enough bishops and abbots and other voting hierarchs that just putting them together in one place would swamp the proceedings.

In other words … if two groups meet in a binding assembly with one group having 3000 members while the other has 450, there will not even be dialog necessary. Just one vote and it’s all over, the smaller group would never agree to that ‘steamroller’ kind of Council.

Likely selected representatives of both parties will meet and hammer out some kind of agreement, which would go back to both parties separately for review and possible ratification in their own assemblies convened at a separate time and place. The back and forth could take years.
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Yes, like Florence.
H:
We have not even come close yet, all the dialog so far for the last forty years has been mostly discussing terminology and describing beliefs. The danger that we could be talking passed one another is huge. Once we really understand one another there is a great big process of sorting out what can be compromised on from what can not.

Then, after the inevitable impasse, everyone will go back and see if maybe they didn’t actually mis-understand one another after all …

I think it will take many decades, if ever.
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A very valid point.

Personally, I think this all boils down to authority. It seems to be the primary stumbling block that goes back to Adam.
 
Hesychios said:
I am just guessing here, but I don’t think reconciliation will come about through one all-encompassing meeting of the minds as a single Council. Most especially because the Latin church has enough bishops and abbots and other voting hierarchs that just putting them together in one place would swamp the proceedings.

In other words … if two groups meet in a binding assembly with one group having 3000 members while the other has 450, there will not even be dialog necessary. Just one vote and it’s all over, the smaller group would never agree to that ‘steamroller’ kind of Council.

Likely selected representatives of both parties will meet and hammer out some kind of agreement, which would go back to both parties separately for review and possible ratification in their own assemblies convened at a separate time and place. The back and forth could take years.

We have not even come close yet, all the dialog so far for the last forty years has been mostly discussing terminology and describing beliefs. The danger that we could be talking passed one another is huge. Once we really understand one another there is a great big process of sorting out what can be compromised on from what can not.

Then, after the inevitable impasse, everyone will go back and see if maybe they didn’t actually mis-understand one another after all …

I think it will take many decades, if ever.
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I agree with everything you said. Nevertheless, I think Orthodox fears of the Pope exercising undue authority over the East are overblown, because the current status is itself insurance against future union-destroying actions.
 
steve_b said:
Yes, like Florence.
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Some might say that the most we can hope for in the next few decades is for Catholic-Orthodox relations to get back to the point they were at around the time of Florence. Others would be more optimistic.
 
sasg said:
I agree with everything you said. Nevertheless, I think Orthodox fears of the Pope exercising undue authority over the East are overblown, because the current status is itself insurance against future union-destroying actions.
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Actually, probably all that is necessary to bring confidence into a possible reconciliation is for the Pope to admit he does not have universal jurisdiction.
 
Hesychios said:
Florence wasn’t quite like that.
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Actually there was agreement at the close of the council. That’s why the council ended. Things hit the fan for the Eastern bishops however, when they arrived home. Ending a very short lived agreement
 
steve_b said:
Actually there was agreement at the close of the council. That’s why the council ended. Things hit the fan for the Eastern bishops however, when they arrived home. Ending a very short lived agreement
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But the Byzantine Christians were in great danger of being overrun by the Muslim Ottomans, and the emperor was hoping that if the Orthodox hierarches reached an agreement with their Latin Catholic counterparts to heal the separation, he would receive sufficient aid from the Western Christians to defend against the menace at his doorstep. So, the delegates from the East at the Council of Florence were in a very tight spot, whether because of pressure from the emperor or dread about the demise of their Christian state–the only bulwark standing in the way of their subjugation to Islam. I would not take the assent of those Orthodox hierarches to Latin Catholic doctrines as holding much water given the dire political circumstances they and their coreligionists were facing back home.
 
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