Eat pork lose salvation??!!

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Monicathree

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Hey all,
My husband has a coworker who is seventh day adventist. A very convinced and outspoken one at that. They were talking about high protein diets and the such…then he followed my husband after and asked if he was Christian. My husband said yes. Then he told my husband that in Isaiah it says, those who eat pork shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He told my husband that God’s law does not change.
So, I am trying to succintly correct him. I know that in Christ the old law is fulfilled and that we are not obliged to the old Jewish Law ie circumcision. But, my question is this…Christ said he did not come to take one iota away from the law?? :confused:
I happen to be reading Isaiah and I couldn’t find anything that says this. I do know in Leviticus there are tons of dietary laws, but from what I understand, again, that is all part of the old laws.
Can somebody please help me understand this and get this straight. I get the feeling this can become a great opportunity to evangelize the true church to this gentleman. Also, so many outside the church think Catholics do not know scripture and just get caught up in the saints and such. I would really like to share the beauty of the faith with him. God bless and thanks.

Peace
 
Acts 10:9-16
9 The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11 and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13 And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” 14 But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” 15 And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.” 16 This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.
 
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Monicathree:
Hey all,
My husband has a coworker who is seventh day adventist. A very convinced and outspoken one at that. They were talking about high protein diets and the such…then he followed my husband after and asked if he was Christian. My husband said yes. Then he told my husband that in Isaiah it says, those who eat pork shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He told my husband that God’s law does not change.
So, I am trying to succintly correct him. I know that in Christ the old law is fulfilled and that we are not obliged to the old Jewish Law ie circumcision. But, my question is this…Christ said he did not come to take one iota away from the law?? :confused:
I happen to be reading Isaiah and I couldn’t find anything that says this. I do know in Leviticus there are tons of dietary laws, but from what I understand, again, that is all part of the old laws.
Can somebody please help me understand this and get this straight. I get the feeling this can become a great opportunity to evangelize the true church to this gentleman. Also, so many outside the church think Catholics do not know scripture and just get caught up in the saints and such. I would really like to share the beauty of the faith with him. God bless and thanks.

Peace
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And there came a voice to him: “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.” But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.” And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has made clean, do not call common.”
(Acts 10:13-15 ESV)
 
Look also at Mark 7:18-23. It is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes out of the heart.
 
I find it AMAZING that people who profess to be Christian TOTALLY IGNORE that Vision of the animals and God commanding to eat, but they have no problem trying to be Christian from Old Testament passages. :rolleyes:

They’ll admit that Christ fulfills the OT, and then preach something lame like the not eating pork… You dont even have to go to Acts to get perspective on this…Jesus HIMSELF, said that its not what goes INTO a man that makes him unclean, its what comes from his heart and issues FROM his mouth. 😉
 
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Monicathree:
I know that in Christ the old law is fulfilled and that we are not obliged to the old Jewish Law ie circumcision. But, my question is this…Christ said he did not come to take one iota away from the law?? :confused:
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If Christ fulfilled (infinitely) fulfilled the requirements of the Mosaic ceremonial law, that means he paid our debts, and we don’t have to follow it since HE did it for us! He took that yoke off of our backs.
 
OK, If I may weigh in on this, no pund intended. SDA’s are first of all very passionate about their faith, I mean if you saw someone doing something that you knew was wrong and it would hurt them, you would do anything to stop them. Their reaction is correct for what they believe, so keep that in mind. The key thing is to make them question their foundational believes.

Now, the Book of Isiah also says, *1:2, Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth, for the LORD speaks: Sons have I raised and reared, but they have disowned me!? An ox knows its owner, and an **, its master’s manger; But Israel does not know, my people have not understood.
This is a very important statement in learning what the Dietary laws meant.

Now I actually wrote a whole article for my personal web site on this, but for the sake of all who are on this forum, I will try to keep it here instead of directing to my web site.

Just about every law that was not part of the Ten Comandments is not literal especially the food ones. If you start from Genesis,

?cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life, thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.? In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."? (Gen.3:18)

Thanks to Adam and Eve, we were basically Vegeterians, but this poses a very strong question! If we were vegeterians, why was Noah instructed to gather of “Clean beasts” Seven and Seven, but of unclean beasts two of two? If we were not allowed to eat meat? (Gen.7:2, Gen.7:3)

Then after the Great Flood, Noah is instructed; (Gen.9:1)God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: "Be fertile and multiply and fill the earth. Dread fear of you shall come upon all the animals of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon all the creatures that move about on the ground and all the fishes of the sea; into your power they are delivered. Every creature that is alive shall be yours to eat; I give them all to you as I did the green plants. Only flesh with its lifeblood still in it you shall not eat.

Yep, after the Flood we can eat anything, with only the restriction of the lifeblood still in it.

So then we come to Leviticus Chapter 11 and Deuteronomy 14
and God gives Moses a list of animals that the Choosen people cannot eat, it includes, pork (Swine), birds of prey, like a vulture, fish that creep at the bottom of the sea etc.

This is where Isiah 1-2 comes in, the Ox is a Clean animal and it knows its owner, the swine, when it has eaten, does not recognize its master; but when hungry it cries out, and on receiving food is quiet again. The fish that creek along the bottom of the sea will never swim free in the ocean.

The bottom of the sea refers to the earth, the sea refers to Heaven. All the animals that the Israelites were told not to eat, was because of their actions, and we are to learn and not be like them. The animals are not unclean, we are unclean, for us to turn from God is to bring death to us.

This is why the vision of Peter is so important, Christ paid the price, for all of our actions, otherwise known as Sin! Christ cleansed us, and made us clean, that is why it does not matter what we eat, it matters how we act.

This can also be a good argument for faith alone…

You can view my article on my web site:
machado-family.com/Q&A/dietary_laws.htm

Joao
 
Part of why Noah was to gather extra clean animals was for sacrifice. God put the wrong teeth in our mouths if we were meant to be vegetarians.
 
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Shibboleth:
Part of why Noah was to gather extra clean animals was for sacrifice. God put the wrong teeth in our mouths if we were meant to be vegetarians.
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Very good point!
Joao
 
Read the Letters of St Paul to the Hebrews. It clears up misconceptions about the imperfection of Mosaic Law and the perfection in Jesus Christ. For we know that Jesus Christ is GOD himself made man. Therefore his law supercedes any Law given by GOD to the Jews. And dietary laws have been done away with - (Except for fast and abstinence laws of course)
 
You guys are so awesome…
Thank you so much for your replies…We don’t have time tonight, but tomorrow, my husband and I are going to read your responses again together put it together in a nice way, so that we can help out this gentleman. It is sooooo cool that there is scripture to point it out to him, cause you know that is all they go by. If anyone can think of anything else, that would be great also…but I already really appreciate what you guys have shared. Peace to you all 👍
 
Monicathree,

What everyone has said is great… I would know however, that his responses if not immediately, then at least when he goes and looks into SDA literature are going to be the following:

Mark 7:1-19 - Marks commentary that says “Thus, in doing this, Jesus declared all foods clean”. is not found in some Bibles, so often SDA’s will question its rightful claim to be in the Bible. Next they will say that the context of this passage is regarding whether or not he Jewish TRADITION of washing hands (vs 1-2) will make a man unclean. They will claim that in his chapter Christ tears down the Jewish Traditions, but not the law of God. (5-11). Therefore, this is not a command to change the law of God. They will often then point to Acts 10:14 where peter says “14"Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.” as proof that the apostles did not understand Mark 7 as permission to eat unclean foods. If he had, then why had Peter still not eaten anything unclean several years after the events in Mark 7. (not saying I agree, but just want you to be ready for what you may hear) 😉

Acts 10 : Peters vision about the unclean meats. An SDA will respond that this vision is a symbolic vision that means only that the gospel can be taken to the gentiles, it is not a vision commanding Christ’s followers to start eating pork. Ie. Christ used symbols of uncleanliness, but was specifically communicating a message about Gentiles, not a new teaching of dietary laws. They will point out to prove this… that Peter never relates that the vision was meaning he could eat unclean food, but instead said, "28He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.”

Now… What I would use are the following verses, which they struggle with a little more…

First. . I really like what Joao had to say about where God commands Noah to take all living beasts as food, not just clean. Follow that verse up with a two questions. If God’s law cannot change, why did He tell Noah to eat anything, then tell Moses he could only eat clean meats. One of two things… either the Bible recorded it wrong, or the SDA belief that the dietary laws can’t change is wrong.

Next, if the Bible said it changed once… then could it change agani, when the rest of the law was done away with. There is no reason to think it didnt!

Then I would present the following verses.

Explain to the person that it is your desire to accept all the Bible, and therefore understand that it is ok, for this man to choose not to eat certain things. You believe that because of Romans 14: 1-4, which says “1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not,** and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him” **

Then take him to 1 Timothy, and explain that while you understand he is a Christian, and loves God, that so do you!! And that you understand what Paul had to say about people who taught that you had to abstain from certain foods. That is in 1 Timothy 4:1-5 "1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
"
Again, explain that you do not think he is a liar, or has any ill purpose, however, you feel that he has been misled on the effects of Christ’s death and the freedom it has given us to live our lives as Christians, not according to the Jewish customs.

Finally, I would then take him to Mark 7:19, which we talked about above. Now that he has seen it in other places, it is easier to point out that Christ himself, according to the Apostle Mark, taught that ALL FOODS were clean. This has been recorded in all modern Bibles, and the SDA Bible commentary also admits that this statement is an original statement that should be included. If one wipes away their pre-conceived notions about meats and dietary laws, this one verse taken by its plain reading is a clear teaching! “19For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”) "

Hope this helps!

Brandon
 
SDA2RC wrote…
“I really like what Joao had to say about where God commands Noah to take all living beasts as food, not just clean. Follow that verse up with a two questions. If God’s law cannot change, why did He tell Noah to eat anything, then tell Moses he could only eat clean meats. One of two things… either the Bible recorded it wrong, or the SDA belief that the dietary laws can’t change is wrong”

Maybe let’s look at this chronologically.

Noah enters the ark before the Law of Moses takes place.
Maybe God wanted Noah and his generations after him to feel free to eat meat. However, by the time of Moses comes along, God wanted His people to be distinguished apart from all other tribes on the earth and wanted special and religious dietary laws to be in place.
When Christ came along, and told us that what goes inthe mouth is clean, but what leaves the body is unclean due to the condition of a person’s heart.

and could the SDA’s bible a different translation than what we use, so does this mean that they will translate passages differently?

go with God!
Edwin
 
For me, the only reason I would choose not to eat meat is due to the amount of suffering most factory-farmed animals go through. I feel a lot of empathy for animals and can’t bear to see them treated inhumanely:-(
 
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Edwin1961:
and could the SDA’s bible a different translation than what we use, so does this mean that they will translate passages differently?

go with God!
Edwin
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Hi Edwin,
The SDA’s use all different Bible Translations, most of my friends and family use one of the following 4…
  1. NIV
  2. NKJV
  3. KJV
  4. NASV
All of these translations are sufficient for discerning the truth on the dietary laws in my opinion. I know they were for me 😉

Brandon
 
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Shibboleth:
Part of why Noah was to gather extra clean animals was for sacrifice. God put the wrong teeth in our mouths if we were meant to be vegetarians.
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That being said, thow another chop on the barbie.
 
I know SDAs follow Mosaic law in defining the Sabbath as Saturday and they have lots of dietary restrictions, but not the same as Jews I know who keep kosher (I am fairly familiar with this having worked for a caterer serving Jewish clients at one time).
What other prescriptions of Jewish law do the follow, and how do they pick and choose?
Do they circumcise? make sin offering to redeem the firstborn?
tithe? adhere to levitical sacrifice? worship in a temple?
wear the priestly garments described in the bible?
do they wear phylacteries, have mezzuzahs on their doorposts?
is the scripture read only in Hebrew?
do they subscribe to the ban on intermingling-- no fabric blends, pure linen or wool only etc.?
 
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Monicathree:
But, my question is this…Christ said he did not come to take one iota away from the law?? :confused:
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As usual, the SDAs don’t read to the end of the verse. It reads

Matthew 5:18
“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.” (Emphasis mine)

At the crucifixion, Jesus declared

John 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished (accomplished): and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The complete sacrifice of Jesus did away with the Mosaic Law, for with the coming of the Holy Spirit, the law of Christ is written on our hearts.
My heart aches for those in spiritual slavery to cults. There is such freedom in Jesus! 🙂
Grace to you,
Paul
 
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