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puzzleannie
Guest
what part of “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood” don’t you get?
what part of “Unless you eat My Body and drink of My Blood you shall not have eternal life.” (John 6) is unclear to you
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what part of “Unless you eat My Body and drink of My Blood you shall not have eternal life.” (John 6) is unclear to you
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fellowChristian
Guest
Speaking of symbols and signs…
Jonah 1:17
And the LORD appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.
Luke 11:29-30
29As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
30"For just as **Jonah became a sign **to the Ninevites, **so will the Son of Man be to this generation. **
**a sign can be followed by the reality **
**
Matthew 12:40**
for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
John 6
26Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
Ok Jesus “truly,truly” says…He’s not talking about signs.
27"Do not work for the** food which perishes**, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
Crackers and bread perish, so He’s not talking about regular food .
28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Ok easy enough all I have to do is believe.
30So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31"Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’"
What kind of bread falls from heaven?Is this the work of God.
32Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is **My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. **
33"For the **bread of God **is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
Yeah where can we get this kind of bread?
35Jesus said to them, "**I am **the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
What? Why is Jesus saying “I am the bread of life” how can He be bread?
36"But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
OOh thats right He said I should believe, and here I am already doubting.
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38"For** I have come down from heaven**, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Do you think He’s talking symbolically here?
39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Of Him? Him who sent me? Who sent Jesus?
40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
OOOhh the Father sent the Son. So this is the work of God.
41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
Why doesn’t Jesus say it differently? Why does He let them “grumble”?
42They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
43Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Ok now He’s going to be more specific.
44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45"It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
He’s telling me I have to believe Him. Ok I believe Him.
48"**I am **the bread of life.
Jesus I don’t understand,but I believe you.
49"Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
51"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
He is the bread and the bread is His flesh?
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”
Yes how? How can Jesus give us His flesh to eat? How? My mind just doesn’t have a file for this. Why doesn’t Jesus clear this all up and just say He’s speaking metaphorically?
Jonah 1:17
And the LORD appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.
Luke 11:29-30
29As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
30"For just as **Jonah became a sign **to the Ninevites, **so will the Son of Man be to this generation. **
**a sign can be followed by the reality **
**
Matthew 12:40**
for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
John 6
26Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
Ok Jesus “truly,truly” says…He’s not talking about signs.
27"Do not work for the** food which perishes**, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
Crackers and bread perish, so He’s not talking about regular food .
28Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
Ok easy enough all I have to do is believe.
30So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
31"Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.’"
What kind of bread falls from heaven?Is this the work of God.
32Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is **My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. **
33"For the **bread of God **is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
Yeah where can we get this kind of bread?
35Jesus said to them, "**I am **the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
What? Why is Jesus saying “I am the bread of life” how can He be bread?
36"But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
OOh thats right He said I should believe, and here I am already doubting.
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38"For** I have come down from heaven**, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Do you think He’s talking symbolically here?
39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
Of Him? Him who sent me? Who sent Jesus?
40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
OOOhh the Father sent the Son. So this is the work of God.
41Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.”
Why doesn’t Jesus say it differently? Why does He let them “grumble”?
42They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?”
43Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Ok now He’s going to be more specific.
44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45"It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
46"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
He’s telling me I have to believe Him. Ok I believe Him.
48"**I am **the bread of life.
Jesus I don’t understand,but I believe you.
49"Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50"This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.
51"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
He is the bread and the bread is His flesh?
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”
Yes how? How can Jesus give us His flesh to eat? How? My mind just doesn’t have a file for this. Why doesn’t Jesus clear this all up and just say He’s speaking metaphorically?
F
fellowChristian
Guest
John 6
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
Isn’t this where Jesus should have said" I am speaking of this as a sign to you."? or symbolically? He doesn’t instead He says “Truly” not once but twice!
54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Why isn’t Jesus explaining? Why is He repeating the same thing? The Jews are arguing about it and instead of offering a different explanation He’s repeating Himself?!
55"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
Jesus says it is “true” instead of symbolically,both times.
56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Now in order for us to follow Him further He states we have to eat and drink. Eat and drink what? He doesn’t say bread and wine.
57"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
Ok I think I’m getting it?!? Maybe if He would change His wording I might understand better?
58"This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats **this bread **will live forever."
Where do we get that kind of bread? Is there a special store I have to go to?
59These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”
“Difficult”? If Jesus is just talking about regular bread why is it so difficult? ok so we buy some bread and eat it, how come they find that “difficult”?
61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
62"What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
He says “the flesh” but not “My Flesh” so Jesus is not talking about His Flesh. Ok I got it.
64"But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
**66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. **
Why did they leave? If they thought He was talking symbolically they wouldn’t have left,would they?Wow so they knew Jesus was talking about His Flesh, they just couldn’t believe Him. Didn’t they know He was God?
67So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”
68Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69"We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
AAah Peter thank you. You said “believed” and not “understand” because it is still a mystery to me. But knowing Jesus is the Holy One of God helps me.
70Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
Isn’t this where Jesus should have said" I am speaking of this as a sign to you."? or symbolically? He doesn’t instead He says “Truly” not once but twice!
54"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Why isn’t Jesus explaining? Why is He repeating the same thing? The Jews are arguing about it and instead of offering a different explanation He’s repeating Himself?!
55"For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
Jesus says it is “true” instead of symbolically,both times.
56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Now in order for us to follow Him further He states we have to eat and drink. Eat and drink what? He doesn’t say bread and wine.
57"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
Ok I think I’m getting it?!? Maybe if He would change His wording I might understand better?
58"This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats **this bread **will live forever."
Where do we get that kind of bread? Is there a special store I have to go to?
59These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?”
“Difficult”? If Jesus is just talking about regular bread why is it so difficult? ok so we buy some bread and eat it, how come they find that “difficult”?
61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
62"What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
He says “the flesh” but not “My Flesh” so Jesus is not talking about His Flesh. Ok I got it.
64"But there are some of you who do not believe " For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
**66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. **
Why did they leave? If they thought He was talking symbolically they wouldn’t have left,would they?Wow so they knew Jesus was talking about His Flesh, they just couldn’t believe Him. Didn’t they know He was God?
67So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”
68Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69"We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God."
AAah Peter thank you. You said “believed” and not “understand” because it is still a mystery to me. But knowing Jesus is the Holy One of God helps me.
70Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”
71Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.
T
tm30
Guest
Yes. Except you’re approaching time from a human standpoint. From the point of view of God, Christ’s crucifixion is ALWAYS present. As is His birth and Resurrection. Does that mean Christ is being crucified over and over in heaven? Consider the following passage from Revelation:
So explain how Jesus can at one and the same time be sitting upon his throne AND standing there as the slain lamb?
Because all of these things are present at ONCE to God. What Jesus gives us in the Eucharist, is a way to transcend human time and participate in the eternal sacrifice visible to heaven. Thus, we are making present - by the work of the Holy Spirit - what chronologically took place 2000 years ago. We are being brought to Calvary, we are not bringing Calvary to us.
Therefore there is still but ONE sacrifice, but through the miracle of the Eucharist, we can be present at any earthly time. Thus, we do these things in remembrance of the Cross. Not because God needs to be reminded, but because we need to be reminded.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Quick somone break out the crackers and grape juice and do a memorial for Emerald Isle - he seems to have been banned - again …
The poor blighter keeps sacrificing himself for us. Didn’t anyone tell him he don’t need to do that anymore and Jesus did it all for us already?
James
The poor blighter keeps sacrificing himself for us. Didn’t anyone tell him he don’t need to do that anymore and Jesus did it all for us already?
James
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ConallCernach
Guest
Of all the things to call unscriptural, really. The Eucharist is probably one of the most blatant aspects of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church (their understanding is a little bit different) to be found in Scriptures.
Everyone else here has provided Scriptural support for your claim. Please read it and answer them.
At least answer fellowChristian’s post.
Everyone else here has provided Scriptural support for your claim. Please read it and answer them.
At least answer fellowChristian’s post.
N
narrowpath
Guest
Also, when Jesus tells people that He is the bread of life and says “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and i will raise him on the Last Day”, the verb he uses for “to eat” literally means to take in to the mouth, to chew, and to swallow.
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