Eating no meat on Fridays

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Kevin, it is out of my area of knowledge what that would be, but I do see you have a good handle on the most probable possibilities.

I am really sad you had to endure so much of that kind of thing, and having the internal conflict of this being done to you by an authority figure representing your God.

But, I do see that you have inner strength that is stronger than that weak man, that horrid man. You still believe in spite of his brutality and in spite of his abuse.

You are a very strong man Kevin. I admire you.

Much as you flatter me, I am not a strong man. If life were not with the support of those around us…
There is abuse in this world, the poor will always be with us.
Test each spirit to see if it be of God. At times I try to get away; but where shall I run?
It’s God who has chosen me, often I have not chosen Him. Lean not on thine own understanding.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Much as you flatter me, I am not a strong man. If life were not with the support of those around us…
There is abuse in this world, the poor will always be with us.
Test each spirit to see if it be of God. At times I try to get away; but where shall I run?
It’s God who has chosen me, often I have not chosen Him. Lean not on thine own understanding.

I’m trying to do that Kevin. Bear in mind I was not raised with belief. I am guessing you were?

However, I am telling you right now that my investigation of christianity is nearly done now, the largest stumbling block I have is one you have surmounted somehow.

Anyway, back on the meat/fish thing. It was an arbitrary choice of the Bishops in the US how many years ago? Based on what the people could do then (guessing now) and has not been updated or replaced with another official penance other than leaving it up to the individual what penance to replace it with? If I am wrong, I do beg correction.

Well, let’s ask this. Why are the Bishops so hesitant to either give a penance that makes more sense as they can and do have the ability to do it (I think in asia they have a rather opposite penance than in the US but I could be wrong)

Unless, they simply want to wash their hands of it and leave it in the laps of the layperson who will undoubtedly without direction (I thought the Bishop had a staff that was symbolic of keeping the sheep together?) do the things they personally feel or simply ignore it. Don’t make me bring up the examples of how they do this already with birth control.

What will people do when they are able to make up their own rules? I’ve seen enough threads on how people think giving up chocolate for Lent is a wonderful penance and all the controversy there.

Where are the Bishops leading their flock?

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Strawberry Jam it don’t pay no dividend to be perfectionist now does it? Have you heard of the Peter principle? All people rise to the level of their incompetence. Man is Creation’s masterpiece; but who says so?
The Church is not a democracy - why, some of the time it aint even Christian.

Thoreau says “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation”
“Our concern is not how to worship in the catacombs but how to remain human in the skyscrapers” (Abraham Heschel).

Penance aint about doing without, but living with. About doing something positive.

 

[Aramis]

Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches continue to encourage the traditional wednesday and friday, with friday mandated (and often, no substitution possible without consultation with one’s pastor appointed spiritual father). In some jurisdictions, Wednesday is not optional, either.

And during Great Lent, and during St. Phillip’s Fast (≈Advent), many Eastern Catholics abstain Monday-Saturday, or even all of lent, and some do not eat by day during these fasts.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

Most of the Eastern Catholic Churches continue to encourage the traditional wednesday and friday, with friday mandated (and often, no substitution possible without consultation with one’s pastor appointed spiritual father). In some jurisdictions, Wednesday is not optional, either.

And during Great Lent, and during St. Phillip’s Fast (≈Advent), many Eastern Catholics abstain Monday-Saturday, or even all of lent, and some do not eat by day during these fasts.

In moderation. The Orthodox still celebrate Sunday and saint’s feast days in Lent. Push it to extremes and you have people with anorexia nervosa holier than the rest of us (or some calling Pope John Paul 2 holy because he flagellated.) St Therese of Lisieux said all she got out of fasting was hunger for food. Doesn’t it say somewhere in Scripture God prefers mercy?

 

[teadough]

I was combatting the erroneous statement you made about fish having to be refrigerated.
I also forgot that it can be dried, but I do have recollection of seeing it prepared that way by asians.
Can you explain why preserved fish would make (what story?) even less plausible and help debunk anything?

You would still end up with a ton of non christians buying the fish. So, I am not sure you debunked anything.

I figured that since you were responding to my first statement that you knew what story I was talking about since I was responding to another poster about said story. Go back to where you quoted me and read that whole post.

Im not sure how to explain to you why either preserved fish or refrigerated fish makes the story(see the other post and read the story) less plausible. It is really obvious. Has nothing to do with “non christians” buying fish.

 

[ProVobis]

You have my sympathy there. That truly would be a challenge. Sounds like a nice boss though. He sounds as if he is not cutting back in this economy. Which does worry me too. I hope he is not going to go bankrupt over this practice! If for no other reason, the jobs that would be lost.
Anyway, you got me to laugh. I really can’t imagine your pain. But, kudos to you for sticking with your faith. That’s integrity, and I admire integrity.

Fortunately it’s not every Friday. And I’m not working there any more. A lot of people left.

Judge not by their “nice” acts.

 

[ProVobis]

Sin calls into question ‘intention’. The Carthusians fast on bread and water Wednesdays and Fridays, unless it is a Feast Day.

I know this bread place that will get your mind off meat real quickly. I could fast on that all day.

 

[ProVobis]

Where are the Bishops leading their flock?

Away from Long John Silver. They must have stopped giving to the Church.

Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

So the rule isn’t retroactive, huh?

btw, George Carlin had a field day with some of the Church rules on one of his albums. So did John Powers in his books. Do you think the Church took them seriously?

I doubt very seriously that the Universal Church founded by Christ is a bit worried about what George Carlin has to say.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

1. Over the past many years our family has generally observed not eating meat on Friday. ** However, if our fridge had too much meat**, and we were concerned about it spoiling, we would eat it, and tell the kids that we had to do some other penance.
2. After hearing 2 priests on EWTN say that fasting from meat and eating your favourite fish food doesn’t really count as penance, well that’s a dilemma for me. My wife cooked fish (it’s not her favourite), but it is MY favourite; in fact fish and seafood is the best to me. So I’d eat the fish, but usually try to remember to do other penance.
3. Now I’m of age that I don’t have to abstain. So sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t. I generally try not to, but don’t feel guilty if I do. My decision (to eat meat) comes down to my "unique diet.

This is a very important concern for me. I make sure not to buy too much fresh meat or lunch meat each week. We also have set Thursday night as leftover day so that the last of the beef stew or whatever is eaten and not wasted.

Also remember that the discipline is to NOT eat meat, it isn’t that you HAVE to eat fish. You can have a veggie meal or something like mac and cheese. As a favor to your wife and to take on the penance to yourself, perhaps you should suggest spaghetti with plain tomato sauce or something like that which is easier for her to prepare.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I actually found a basis for this rumour, although to my surprise, it was Anglican in origin. I was watching a UKTV show on eating patterns through the centuries and their effect on health. A man and woman team investigated and found old recipies for the various dishes throughout the ages. They would have a medical exam before commencing, then for a week, would eat the prescribed diet, followed by another medical exam at the end of the week. The program was not religious at all.

When they did a week of Elizabethan England, they casually remarked that Queen Elizabeth I had made it law that the English had to eat fish on Wednesday, Friday and Saturday.

Yes, and a purely practical reason for this from the non-Catholic English point of view is that having a populace that eats a lot of fish means that deep-sea fishing (as opposed to river fishing or fishing from the shore) is maintained. A strong fishing fleet then transfers to a strong naval presence when necessary.

Elizabeth and some pretty screwy theology, but she was a very good politician!

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Fish is out of reach for the poor. Unless eating mostly breading with some really bad cod in it counts, is a luxury for many people.

I don’t believe the catholic church would consider it a sin if the person was so poor and all they had in the fridge was salami, that if they ate it because it was all they had that they sinned. At least I hope not.

Fish can be very expensive now, but it wasn’t always so. A poor person in the country could easily catch a fish in a nearbby stream. In colonial New England, lobsters were so common (and considered nasty because they are bottom feeders) that they were fed to the prisioners!

And also remember, the discipline is not that you HAVE to eat fish. It is that you shouldn’t eat meat. In that case a meal of bread and milk or veggies is perfectly acceptable.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Anyway, back on the meat/fish thing. It was an arbitrary choice of the Bishops in the US how many years ago? Based on what the people could do then (guessing now) and has not been updated or replaced with another official penance other than leaving it up to the individual what penance to replace it with? If I am wrong, I do beg correction.

Well, let’s ask this. Why are the Bishops so hesitant to either give a penance that makes more sense as they can and do have the ability to do it (I think in asia they have a rather opposite penance than in the US but I could be wrong)

Unless, they simply want to wash their hands of it and leave it in the laps of the layperson who will undoubtedly without direction (I thought the Bishop had a staff that was symbolic of keeping the sheep together?) do the things they personally feel or simply ignore it. Don’t make me bring up the examples of how they do this already with birth control.

What will people do when they are able to make up their own rules? I’ve seen enough threads on how people think giving up chocolate for Lent is a wonderful penance and all the controversy there.

Where are the Bishops leading their flock?

I agree that it is a pity that the bishops didn’t make this issue clearer to the lay people. However, their reasoning (as I understand it) is exactly as we have discussed here. Having mac and cheese for lunch and calimari or other seafood for dinner each Friday wasn’t exactly penitential to many people. There were also quite a few who had no idea what the reasoning behind it was, other than as a cultural thing. So the bishops felt that each of us, choosing our own penance, would be more meaningful. Unfortunately, the follow-up wasn’t there and the only message that came through for many, many Catholics was that they “didn’t need to eat fish on Fridays” anymore.

 

[littlequestion]

Fish is out of reach for the poor. Unless eating mostly breading with some really bad cod in it counts, is a luxury for many people.

I don’t believe the catholic church would consider it a sin if the person was so poor and all they had in the fridge was salami, that if they ate it because it was all they had that they sinned. At least I hope not.

Excuse me, but money does not equal intelligence. Fresh fish can be bought cheaply on Mondays and frozen for use on the following Friday, but if you do the math (and poor people are very good at math when shopping!) even the fresh fish bought on Thursday afternoon adds up to an economic meal for several people.

This insult to humanity is disgusting. I am so sick of arrogant white yuppies (too many are older now, shall we substitute “geriatric” for “young” and call them “guppies”?) who make these NPR pronouncements about THEM, THE POOR: who are all helpless, pathetic, too stupid to know how to cook, etc etc.

I’ll say a Hail Mary before I type anymore.

 

[ProVobis]

I doubt very seriously that the Universal Church founded by Christ is a bit worried about what George Carlin has to say.

Bet he had a lot of Catholic followers though. As if Hans Kung wasn’t enough.

 

[exarctly]

1. Now I’m of age that I don’t have to abstain. So sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t. I generally try not to, but don’t feel guilty if I do. My decision (to eat meat) comes down to my "unique diet.

There is not an age where you do not have to abstain anymore (though of course we do recognize that you can substitute penance on Friday’s outside of lent). I think the abstinence from meat is required after you reach a certain age (14 I think) and until you die (unless there is some special exemption an individual can be specifically granted that would be different and I would not know about).
You are free from the law of fasting on the beginning of your 60th year. But the fasting requirements (ash wednesday and good friday only I believe) are different than the abstinence requirements. Maybe this is what you were referring to, or thought was the same thing?

 

[QuickCat]

That quote refers to general abstinence among heretical sects, for example, the Shakers and it also refers to vegetarians and vegans. Nobody violates doctrine when they personally choose celibacy or vegetarianism, of course, but if they preach it to others as a matter of sin, then you are right, that would violate God’s will for us. ThC VatII relaxation has nothing to do with that quote since they did leave the Lenten requirements in. It was nothing more than an effort by the Church to be a little less demanding, and so now we reflect on Fridays as a voluntary custom outside of Lenten time.

Did you post that to suggest that the entire question of scheduled fasting days and issues of sin are violations of God’s law? If so, then you must be a fundamentalist “sola scriptora” (splg?)Protestant because the Catholic doctrines have never changed. This is a Catholic board, you know. Maybe you were looking for the Apologetics section where they explain these things to Protestants?

Seems to me that Paul was warning of apostasy in the “latter days.” Note what he says in verse 6: 1Ti*4:6 ¶ If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

 

[QuickCat]

That quote refers to general abstinence among heretical sects, for example, the Shakers and it also refers to vegetarians and vegans. Nobody violates doctrine when they personally choose celibacy or vegetarianism, of course, but if they preach it to others as a matter of sin, then you are right, that would violate God’s will for us. ThC VatII relaxation has nothing to do with that quote since they did leave the Lenten requirements in. It was nothing more than an effort by the Church to be a little less demanding, and so now we reflect on Fridays as a voluntary custom outside of Lenten time.

Did you post that to suggest that the entire question of scheduled fasting days and issues of sin are violations of God’s law? If so, then you must be a fundamentalist “sola scriptora” (splg?)Protestant because the Catholic doctrines have never changed. This is a Catholic board, you know. Maybe you were looking for the Apologetics section where they explain these things to Protestants?

Seems to me that Paul is warning of apostasy in the “latter days.” Note what he writes in vs 6 - 1Ti*4:6 ¶ If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

 

[KEVIN_WILCOX]

“There go my people. I must find out where they are going so I can lead them” (Alexandre Ledru-Rollin, 1807-1874)

“I must follow the people. Am I not their leader?” (Benjamin Disraeli, 1804-1881)