Ebionites

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FireFromHeaven

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I was debating a Muslim. I said no early Christian groups that I knew besides the gnostics denied the incarnation. Then he told me about the ebionites. How do I reply?
 
I never knew about them and it makes sense that they might be the true followers of Jesus. He also told me about Muhhameds miracles which I had never heard before. He is starting to make sense. Is there any hole in his arguement?
 
Little is known about the Ebionites. For your friend to claim that they denied the incarnation is highly dubious, considering the lack of any archaeological and written evidence about them. Also, just because it happened early on does not mean that it is right.

Good luck, and hopefully God will change your Islamic friends heart and bring him to the truth of Catholicism, that his soul may be saved on the Last Day.

Benedicat Deus
Latinitas
 
FireFromHeaven said:
I was debating a Muslim. I said no early Christian groups that I knew besides the gnostics denied the incarnation. Then he told me about the ebionites. How do I reply?
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Gnostics denied the incarnation? Didn’t know that
 
Ebionites were an early Jewish/Christian sect. They regarded Jesus as the Messiah but insisted on following Jewish ceremony laws. They were scarce and fragmentary. A quick google search will give you more info. I wouldn’t trust or take any info from the muslim you are talking to. Likewise, they certainly would not have seen Mohammed as a prophet at all if that is what this person is leading to.
 
FireFromHeaven said:
I was debating a Muslim. I said no early Christian groups that I knew besides the gnostics denied the incarnation. Then he told me about the ebionites. How do I reply?
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There is a great book out “Fathers Know Best” it is about the early church fathers and it covers a number of the early secs and groups and heresies. I would get that book and you can read up on a number of heresies besides the gnostics.
 
FireFromHeaven said:
I was debating a Muslim. I said no early Christian groups that I knew besides the gnostics denied the incarnation. Then he told me about the ebionites. How do I reply?
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Please read “Examining Jerald Dirks’ Theological Assumptions” part 1 / part 2.

Your interlocutor can’t honestly point to the Ebionites as the true original followers of the Muslim-style Jesus, because this group had some very non-Islamic elements in their faith.
 
FireFromHeaven said:
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He also told me about Muhhameds miracles which I had never heard before.
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What miracles. The Quran claims Mohamad cannot do any miracles.

Sura [11:12]

You may wish to disregard some of that which is revealed to you, and you may be annoyed by it. Also, they may say, “How come no treasure comes down to him, or an angel?” You are only a warner; GOD controls all things.
 
jakasaki said:
What miracles. The Quran claims Mohamad cannot do any miracles.

Sura [11:12]

You may wish to disregard some of that which is revealed to you, and you may be annoyed by it. Also, they may say, “How come no treasure comes down to him, or an angel?” You are only a warner; GOD controls all things.
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That verse doesn’t include the word “miracles” though, and it isn’t clear what “treasure” refers to. It would be much better if we had an `ayat which more explicitly denied that Muhammad could perform signs.
 
FireFromHeaven said:
I was debating a Muslim. I said no early Christian groups that I knew besides the gnostics denied the incarnation. Then he told me about the ebionites. How do I reply?
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The Ebionites were a heretical sect in the very early Church. They mostly existed before the divinity of Jesus was formally defined in a council and disappeared fairly rapidly afterward.

They would not have been required to adhere to a teaching that had not yet been defined so all this argument shows is that your friend does not understand how doctrine works.
FireFromHeaven said:
I never knew about them and it makes sense that they might be the true followers of Jesus. He also told me about Muhhameds miracles which I had never heard before. He is starting to make sense. Is there any hole in his arguement?
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There is no reliable recording of Mohammad performing any miracles. According to Wikipedia, there are only popular traditions, some of which are based on vague statements in the Koran.
 
FireFromHeaven, as a matter of concern for your spiritual well being, this and similar posts of yours seem to indicate this is not just about reaching another soul, but about quelling doubts within yourself. “He is starting to make sense,” and this sort of thing. If your faith is that shaky, it might be wise to stop debating heretics for awhile, and work on building your faith. Every belief system has difficulties and unknowns, and there is an infinite number of what-ifs anyone can come up with. Even from an agnostic standpoint, obsessing over what-ifs will drive a person mad. Why not read a good spiritual book by a Saint instead?
 
Doves411 said:
Gnostics denied the incarnation? Didn’t know that
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Yes, the Docetists, the Cerinthians, the Carpocratians and most of the gnostic sects did deny Jesus’ divinity at some level or that he was God incarnated, or that he took and actual and real flesh.
 
Trebor135 said:
That verse doesn’t include the word “miracles” though, and it isn’t clear what “treasure” refers to. It would be much better if we had an `ayat which more explicitly denied that Muhammad could perform signs.
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Tafsir on 11:12

(A likely thing, that thou) O Muhammad (wouldst forsake aught of that which hath been revealed unto thee) that which you were commanded in the Qur’an of conveying the message and of reviling and denigrating their idols, (and that thy breast should be straitened for it) and that you are annoyed with what you were commanded, (because they say) because the disbelievers of Mecca say: (Why hath not a treasure) wealth from heaven (been sent down for him) for Muhammad to support himself with, (or an angel come with him) to testify in his favour? (Thou art) O Muhammad (but a warner) a warning Messenger, (and Allah is in charge) Allah is Custodian; it is also said this means: witness (of all things) of their saying and chastisement.

It states that he is only a warning messenger. Just a messenger and **not **a miracle worker.
 
From what I get there was a variation of beliefs among the Ebionites and probably two different sects labeled like that. From the writings of some early fathers I get that they refere to the Ebionites as denying the divinity of Jesus and repudiating Paul as an apostate and withelding the Old Law. They also say that he was the natural child of Mary and Joseph. Some fathers say some of them deny the Virgin birth , some don’t. And I think Jerome says that some of them believe as Christians do, that Jesus was God and that he was born of a Virgin and so on. Perhaps Jerome is associating the Nazarenes with Ebionites?

Here you have some of the quotes from the fathers concerning this sect :

en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ebionites_according_to_the_Church_Fathers
 
I heard someone say that Muhammad’s father or father in law was an Ebionite priest? Has anyone else heard that?
 
Cybophonia said:
I heard someone say that Muhammad’s father or father in law was an Ebionite priest? Has anyone else heard that?
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I’m not familiar with that claim. I have heard, though, that Muhammad had a Nestorian uncle, Waraqa bin Nawfil.
 
Cybophonia said:
I heard someone say that Muhammad’s father or father in law was an Ebionite priest? Has anyone else heard that?
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You’re thinking of Mohammads first wife’s cousin. His name was Waraka and it is claimed that he was an Ebionite priest.

It was Waraka who told Mohammad that he was a prophet.
 
Did they believe Christ was savior? To the person way above he made me question my faith for a while but these replies have strengthened it. I will build my faith though once this debate is done.
 
FireFromHeaven said:
Did they believe Christ was savior? To the person way above he made me question my faith for a while but these replies have strengthened it. I will build my faith though once this debate is done.
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It seems like you didn’t read any links provided.

Seriously Fire, do you want us to type everything out for you.

Read the replies and read the links provided within this thread.

It seems like you want a quick one work or one sentence answer.
 
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