Ecône consecrations SSPX

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Crusading_Canuk

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I do sympathize with the SSPX and prefer the Tridentine Mass. While on the Traditional forum, I have seen the validity of the Ecône Consecrations mentioned but never an entire thread (perhaps I never looked hard enough) devoted to their status. In you opinion, are they licit or illicit and please reference Canon law if possible.
 
The consecrations are valid, but not licit at this time. If they were invalid, there would not be suspensions.

Cardinal Hoyos was reported to have planned a trip to Econe this fall, but I’m not sure of the dates or nature of the trip

When the excommunications were lifted, the document referred to the four as Bishops.
 
I do sympathize with the SSPX and prefer the Tridentine Mass. While on the Traditional forum, I have seen the validity of the Ecône Consecrations mentioned but never an entire thread (perhaps I never looked hard enough) devoted to their status. In you opinion, are they licit or illicit and please reference Canon law if possible.
Liceity and validity are two very separate issues. Which are you asking about? As far as I know, there is practically no one who would dispute that that the consecrations were (a) illicit, but (b) valid. (Although SSPX threads really draw people out from underneath their rocks, so I’m sure we’ll see me proven wrong on both counts). At any rate, being licit versus illicit and being valid versus invalid are quite separate questions.
 
I apologize, I am refering to the licity of the consecrations not their validity. Again sorry for not being more specific.
 
The Holy See long ago recognized the validity of the consecrations but declared that they were illicit. As Mark said, there will be some who will twist Canon law like a pretzel to assure us that they were licit, but the legitimate authority of the Church has said otherwise.
 
The Holy See long ago recognized the validity of the consecrations but declared that they were illicit. As Mark said, there will be some who will twist Canon law like a pretzel to assure us that they were licit, but the legitimate authority of the Church has said otherwise.
How did the SSPX “twist Canon law like a pretzel” exactly? It was my understanding that Canon law allowed exemptions in the case of a crisis for the Faith.
 
How did the SSPX “twist Canon law like a pretzel” exactly? It was my understanding that Canon law allowed exemptions in the case of a crisis for the Faith.
Perhaps it is splitting hairs here a little but there is an issue of liceity and then there is the issue of excommunication. There is the possibility of illicitness without the excommuncation, for example, without full knowledge, etc.

The noted excommunication because of the “schismatic act” was latae sententiae (automatic), and this is where canon lawyers differ because of the necessity clause in the same canon. Not to mention that it is not necessary to announce it for it to be in effect. However, that defense fails if ferendae sententiae excommunication was actually enforced, which means anyone can be excommunicated by the Pope or bishops for any reason, in spite of the what was actually announced.

That said, I don’t know what the recent lifting of those excommunications does to the liceity of the consecrations. Perhaps someone else can shed light on the matter.
 
I see that I am the only one so far who has voted “licit” in the poll, which does not surprise me. As for the comment of “twisting canon law like a pretzel” or whatever - I find that very insulting to those who have studied Canon Law and have sincerely come to the legitimate conclusion that the consecrations were in fact licit.

I will get alot of stick for this comment; but I truly believe that Catholics in the future (don’t know how long) will look back and say “thank God for Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre”. I know I do regularly.

Also, I will be happy to discuss the Canon Law issue indepth with anyone - and I will try not to “twist it like a pretzel”!
 
As for the comment of “twisting canon law like a pretzel” or whatever - I find that very insulting to those who have studied Canon Law and have sincerely come to the legitimate conclusion that the consecrations were in fact licit.
Take it however you wish but so far two popes have acknowledged that the consecrations were illicit. The opinion of various people who have “studied Canon law” is of no consequence to the decision of the legitimate authority of the Church, the Holy See.
 
How did the SSPX “twist Canon law like a pretzel” exactly? It was my understanding that Canon law allowed exemptions in the case of a crisis for the Faith.
This defense was tried and rejected by the Holy See.

From wiki:

In June 1987, Lefebvre announced his intention to consecrate a successor to the episcopacy. He implied that he intended to do this with or without the approval of the Holy See.[20] Under canons 1013 and 1382 of the Catholic Code of Canon Law, the consecration of a bishop requires papal approval. Consecration of bishops without papal approval had been condemned by Pope Pius XII in his encyclical Ad Apostolorum Principis, who described the sacramental activity of bishops who had been consecrated without such approval as “gravely illicit, that is, criminal and sacrilegious”.[21]

On 3 June, Lefebvre wrote from Ecône, stating that he intended to proceed. On 9 June, the Pope replied with a personal letter, appealing to him not to proceed with a design that “would be seen as nothing other than a schismatic act, the theological and canonical consequences of which are known to you”. Lefebvre did not reply and the letter was made public on 16 June. For the first time the Holy See stated publicly that Lefebvre was in danger of being excommunicated.

The following day, the Congregation for Bishops issued a decree declaring that Archbishop Lefebvre had incurred automatic excommunication.[22] On the following day, 2 July, Pope John Paul II issued an apostolic letter known as Ecclesia Dei in which he condemned the Archbishop’s action.[23] The Pope stated that, since schism is defined in the Code of Canon Law as “withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him” (canon 751),[24] the consecration “constitute[d] a schismatic act”, and that, by virtue of canon 1382 of the Code,[25] it entailed automatic excommunication for all the bishops involved.
 
But the excommunications were lifted with absolutely no action by the SSPX save for their request they be lifted.

What does that tell us ?
 
But the excommunications were lifted with absolutely no action by the SSPX save for their request they be lifted.

What does that tell us ?
It tells us that the excommunications were lifted, nothing more. The consecrations are still illicit.
 
Take it however you wish but so far two popes have acknowledged that the consecrations were illicit. The opinion of various people who have “studied Canon law” is of no consequence to the decision of the legitimate authority of the Church, the Holy See.
You must know that a Pope “acknowledging” something as being this case does not make it so Ipso facto. Every one who knows anything about Canon law will tell you that although the Pope is the Supreme legislator, the person in question has a rite to be judged by Canon Law as it is written. It just so happens that there are clauses written in Canon Law which nulify this particular Law, which I will show later.

You say that the opinion of those who have studied Canon law, canon lawers etc is of no consequence since the Pope is the ligitimate authority. Yes, everyone knows the Popes authority as Supreme legislator, however a person is entitled to be judged as the law is written. New laws cannot be written/altered after the fact and the person charged with transgressing it!

Lets look at the facts:

Card. Bernard Gantin threatened to excommunicate the Archbishop if he prceeded with the consecrations.

The grounds was Canon 1382 -

Can. 1382 “Both the Bishop who, without a pontifical mandate, consecrates a person a Bishop, and the one who receives the consecration from him, incur a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See.”

This is clear.

Card. Gantin also called it a “schismatic act” and attempted to apply Canon1364 S1 - " An apostate from the faith, a heretic or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication, without prejudice to the provision of Can. 194 §1, n. 2; a cleric, moreover, may be punished with the penalties mentioned in Can. 1336 §1, nn. 1, 2 and 3."

Pope John Paul echoed Cardinal Gantins accusation of “schismatic mentality” and threatended general excommunications.

Dealing firstly with Canon 1382: The excommunication for alleged abuse of episcopal powers was not incurred. This is because because a person who violates a law out of necessity is not subject to a penalty as per canon 1323 §4. This is the case even if there is no real state of necessity. ( which of course I dispute)

If someone inculpably- not through his own fault thought there was a case of necessity he would not incur the penalty according to canon 1323 -70. And even if the person culpably thought there was (which was not the case in this instance) he would still not incur the penalty as per canon 1324 §3, §1, 80.

Who will deny that the Archbishop ***at least thought ***there was a necessity even if there wasn’t? Canon Law thus excuses him from the penalty as per the above mentioned Canons.

Canon law also says that no penalty is incurred ever without committing a (subjective) mortal sin - canons 1321 §1 & 1323 70. Archbishop Lefebvre stated clearly and repeatidly that he was bound in conscience to go ahead with the consecrations as her feared tremendously for the survival of the Catholic priesthood. He belived that he was obeying God in doing so. This, even if he was wrong there was no subjective sin on his part. This also confirms the nullity of the penalty.

You state that:

"This defense was tried and rejected by the Holy See."

No it was not. I have studied the documents issued - both public and private correspondance - for many years and in no way did the Holy See address the arguments and appeals to these canons. It is well known that Archbishop Lefebvre asked to be tried in Rome but it was denied. His right to a fair hearing and trial was refused. He appealed under the above mentioned canons, as was his rights, and was not answered. If you can provide the document from the Holy See in which his defence (including the above mentioned) was ***tried and rejected *** as you claim, then I would very much like to see it.
 
APOSTOLIC LETTER
“ECCLESIA DEI”
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
JOHN PAUL II
GIVEN MOTU PROPRIO
*
3. In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.(3) In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.(4)*

“Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.(8)”

And this:

"Consecration of bishops without papal approval had been condemned by Pope Pius XII in his encyclical Ad Apostolorum Principis, who described the sacramental activity of bishops who had been consecrated without such approval as “gravely illicit, that is, criminal and sacrilegious”.[21] "

While I don’t claim to have studied Canon law, I do understand that the source of the excommunications was the act of consecrating bishops without a papal mandate, something explained to the archbishop, yet he proceeded anyway. Pope Pius XII called such actions “gravely illicit…criminal and sacrilegious.” Now, could it be that three popes are mistaken, but you are correct???
 
Lets look at the facts:

Card. Bernard Gantin threatened to excommunicate the Archbishop if he prceeded with the consecrations.
You present good points but just a point of order here. By definition, neither Cardinal Gantin nor John Paul II can excommunicate anyone the latae sententiae route. If it’s automatic, the Pope doesn’t have to do a thing. The bishops in question already impose whatever penalties upon themselves, whether these penalties are mitigated or not.

One other thing, if they had indeed already been excommunicated, how does the rest of Canon Law, i.e., where the Pope is the final arbiter, even apply?
 
As I commented fairly recently in [thread=502339]another thread[/thread], it seems to me that the 1988 situation was more the result of a battle of wills between two very stubborn people than anything else.

It also seems to me that the SSPX contention of “necessity” in proceeding with the episcopal ordinations, against the explicit warning of the Pope, is a smokescreen. Yes, there may have been some justification of “necessity” for the ordination of one bishop to succeed Mgr Lefebvre, but Rome agreed to that request. The problem arose when Mgr Lefebvre, (possibly acting under pressure from others who were taking advantage of an old man and his fears), unilaterally upped the stakes and demanded four bishops. The SSPX had successfully functioned with one bishop since its inception. How is it possible that in 1988 the need for four all of a sudden became an “emergency” else the SSPX (and by their implication, the Church itself), would not survive? All the SSPX apologiae in the world will not convince me that there was any “necessity” whatsoever for that.

Absent the (non-existent) “necessity” defense, it’s very clear (to me, at least) that the excommunications were incurred latae sententiae precisely because of willful violation of canon 1382 as written.
 
It also seems to me that the SSPX contention of “necessity” in proceeding with the episcopal ordinations, against the explicit warning of the Pope, is a smokescreen. Yes, there may have been some justification of “necessity” for the ordination of one bishop to succeed Mgr Lefebvre, but Rome agreed to that request. The problem arose when Mgr Lefebvre, (possibly acting under pressure from others who were taking advantage of an old man and his fears), unilaterally upped the stakes and demanded four bishops. The SSPX had successfully functioned with one bishop since its inception. How is it possible that in 1988 the need for four all of a sudden became an “emergency” else the SSPX (and by their implication, the Church itself), would not survive? All the SSPX apologiae in the world will not convince me that there was any “necessity” whatsoever for that.

Absent the (non-existent) “necessity” defense, it’s very clear (to me, at least) that the excommunications were incurred latae sententiae precisely because of willful violation of canon 1382 as written.
I think I see your point. One bishop to replace a dying bishop could easily be thrown into the necessity clause; in fact this was already pre-approved, albeit not the one the AB selected. Two would be stretching the necessity clause a little bit but four necessary bishops (at that time) should be out of the question, even in the mind of the most fervent supporter of the SSPX.
 
The “excommunications” were remitted. This matter is done and over with.

What is the value in discussing a matter that does not exist anymore?
 
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