EC / EO a question

[Eoin_Deburg]

Greetings to all,

I know that this may come across as an odd question. But after reading many of the threads posted, it seems like there is quite a bit of anger towards the RCC due to the pressures of “Latinization” in/of both Liturgies and Theology. If that is the case, why is there not a bigger mass transition to the EO Church? Is the sole reason the need to be in communion with the Chair of Peter? Just curious.

Thanks

 

[runningdude]

Greetings to all,

I know that this may come across as an odd question. But after reading many of the threads posted, it seems like there is quite a bit of anger towards the RCC due to the pressures of “Latinization” in/of both Liturgies and Theology. If that is the case, why is there not a bigger mass transition to the EO Church? Is the sole reason the need to be in communion with the Chair of Peter? Just curious.

Thanks

The Eastern Catholic Churches, especially in the past 60 years in Soviet Block, have experienced persecution by the Orthodox Churches or the Civil Authorities.

In the past 10-20 years, as Communism has fallen, Eastern Catholics have ceased back numerous church buildings confiscated by the government and handed over to the Orthodox.

The Eastern Catholics have fought and died to preserve their identity and unity with Rome and the universal church. One does not simply spit in the face of the martyrs by defecting simply because they are upset with upper management.

 

[bilop]

The Eastern Catholic Churches, especially in the past 60 years in Soviet Block, have experienced persecution by the Orthodox Churches or the Civil Authorities.

In the past 10-20 years, as Communism has fallen, Eastern Catholics have ceased back numerous church buildings confiscated by the government and handed over to the Orthodox.

The Eastern Catholics have fought and died to preserve their identity and unity with Rome and the universal church. One does not simply spit in the face of the martyrs by defecting simply because they are upset with upper management.

Exactly. Many Orthodox leaders collaborated with the Soviet and various other Communist regime. Of course many more Orthodox priest were martyred by the Communists, but still, there was a sizeable number of collaborators. In fact the previous Patriarch was strongly suspected of being as KGB agent.

It’s also true that preservation of many of the Latinizations have been internal driven from within the EC/OC Churches. For several decades, Rome has been urging them to stay true to their own traditions.

God Bless

 

[Polycarp1]

Greetings to all,

I know that this may come across as an odd question. But after reading many of the threads posted, it seems like there is quite a bit of anger towards the RCC due to the pressures of “Latinization” in/of both Liturgies and Theology. If that is the case, why is there not a bigger mass transition to the EO Church? Is the sole reason the need to be in communion with the Chair of Peter? Just curious.

Thanks

This question/statement surprises me as I’m not seeing a lot of anger as you put it, nor am I sure what you mean by the “pressures of Latinization in both Liturgies and Theology”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Eastern Catholic Churches, especially in the past 60 years in Soviet Block, have experienced persecution by the Orthodox Churches or the Civil Authorities.

This is such a simplistic way of putting it that it does no justice to the actual events or the people involved. If you want to dismiss Orthodoxy on the basis of purported collaboration with Communist Russia, then how do you explain the actions of the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages starting from the Crusades, Inquisition, and other actions done in conjunction with the medieval kingdoms?

In the past 10-20 years, as Communism has fallen, Eastern Catholics have ceased back numerous church buildings confiscated by the government and handed over to the Orthodox.

The Eastern Catholics have fought and died to preserve their identity and unity with Rome and the universal church. One does not simply spit in the face of the martyrs by defecting simply because they are upset with upper management.

Again, this is just way over simplification of the issue. I don’t think even the martyrs would claim that the Orthodox today are in any way in cahoots with those under the Soviet yoke. Why not read a little bit more on the history of the ROCOR and the fragmented Russian Orthodox Church as a result of the Soviet Union? You’d be surprised.

 

[ConstantineTG]

nor am I sure what you mean by the “pressures of Latinization in both Liturgies and Theology”.

He means this… orthocath.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/rome-to-us-eastern-catholics-new-priests-should-embrace-celibacy/

 

[Seamus_L]

My experience and that of others I have spoken with, is that the numbers of Eastern Catholics angry about what they consider to be Latinizations is relatively small. And of that group, a rather high percentage eventually will leave the Catholic Church alltogather for the Orthodox.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I won’t comment too directly on this because I am certainly not an Eastern Catholic, and don’t claim to have a great personal knowledge of their motives. I just want to say in a general way that online forums are not the best place to gauge the attitudes of any group. Active members on these forums tend to be the sort of people who like discussing and even debating controversial subjects, and could give misleading impressions if taken as one’s primary picture of any wider class of people, such as Eastern Catholics.

 

[Denho]

My experience and that of others I have spoken with, is that the numbers of Eastern Catholics angry about what they consider to be Latinizations is relatively small. And of that group, a rather high percentage eventually will leave the Catholic Church alltogather for the Orthodox.

As is the number of Roman Catholics who believe in transubstantiation, are concerned about the loss of their own traditions, or do not use contraception. Your point being?

Does the number of people who are justifiably concerned negate the merit of those concerns?

There is always going to be a “vocal few” who are knowledgable of their faith and actually care enough to express it.

Should we do more to educate our less enthusiastic brethren rather than jumping ship? Perhaps. It does no one good to belittle their cause, however.

I would think that after half a century of the Roman Church’s wholesale loss of its patrimony more Latins would be sympathetic to their Eastern brethren who have had to suffer through this for much much longer.

 

[bilop]

Again, this is just way over simplification of the issue. I don’t think even the martyrs would claim that the Orthodox today are in any way in cahoots with those under the Soviet yoke. Why not read a little bit more on the history of the ROCOR and the fragmented Russian Orthodox Church as a result of the Soviet Union? You’d be surprised.

Nor did I say they were. I don’t believe the current Orthodox leadership was every in cahoots with the Communists.

But, it’s not that long ago. People hold grudges. Because of that, Eastern Catholics may feel more affinity for the Latin Church, who vocally opposed the Soviets, than their Eastern brethren.

God Bless

 

[ConstantineTG]

As is the number of Roman Catholics who believe in transubstantiation, are concerned about the loss of their own traditions, or do not use contraception. Your point being?

Does the number of people who are justifiably concerned negate the merit of those concerns?

There is always going to be a “vocal few” who are knowledgable of their faith and actually care enough to express it.

Should we do more to educate our less enthusiastic brethren rather than jumping ship? Perhaps. It does no one good to belittle their cause, however.

I would think that after half a century of the Roman Church’s wholesale loss of its patrimony more Latins would be sympathetic to their Eastern brethren who have had to suffer through this for much much longer.

My thoughts exactly. The attitude expressed suprisingly does not apply to the Latin Rite where a HUGE number does not find anything wrong with the OF as it is, including a plethora of instruments used by the choir, jazz music, hand holding during the Our Father, receiving standing and in the hands, Protestant-style music, an army of EMHCs, laity stretching out their hands to confer a blessing on someone during Liturgy, etc. So it is okay to say that ECs are okay with Latinizations because a great majority of ECs do not have problems with it, but in the Latin Rite all these are problems even though a great majority do not have a problem with it? And this usually comes from the same people. I guess that is the agenda, to have traditional Latin spirituality uniformly in all Catholic Churches.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Nor did I say they were. I don’t believe the current Orthodox leadership was every in cahoots with the Communists.

But, it’s not that long ago. People hold grudges. Because of that, Eastern Catholics may feel more affinity for the Latin Church, who vocally opposed the Soviets, than their Eastern brethren.

God Bless

The history of the Ukrainian Church is longer than that, and the animosity between them and the Russians go way, way back, long before Communism and the Bolsheviks. Why do you think the Union of Brest happened in the first place? Clue, it is not because of being in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

 

[babochka]

Nor did I say they were. I don’t believe the current Orthodox leadership was every in cahoots with the Communists.

But, it’s not that long ago. People hold grudges. Because of that, Eastern Catholics may feel more affinity for the Latin Church, who vocally opposed the Soviets, than their Eastern brethren.

God Bless

There were martyrs on both sides and the history is tragic.

The communists took our churches and gave them to the Orthodox. When the post-communist courts ruled that our churches had to be returned to us, the Orthodox, in many cases gutted and destroyed them. This is in the last 15 years, not really even yet history.

Catholics have also behaved badly throughout history as well, there is no doubt.

This is just part of the brokenness of humanity. Only the Holy Spirit can bring about the healing that we need, but we must cooperate with faith and good will toward one another.

 

[dzheremi]

Even for those far outside of the Bolshevik or Russian expansionist empire, Rome has always been good about presenting them with an alternative to whatever power struggle they might be dealing with, provided via union with Rome. Look up the history of the beginnings of the Chaldean Catholic Church. In 1552, one Youhannan Salaqa was involved in a succession dispute within the CoE (different patriarchs for different regions, etc.), and effectively “solved” it by going to Rome to be ordained, thereby effectively starting the Chaldean Catholic Church via that union. This is generally how it goes: Somebody, somewhere would rather be a Patriarch in a newly-created Rome-affiliated Church than be whatever it is they were already in their non-Catholic church, and ta-da! An Eastern/Oriental Catholic Church is born.

Sorry if that sounds cynical, but that’s the history as it stands in most cases.

 

[AzzurriFan]

There is always going to be a “vocal few” who are knowledgable of their faith and actually care enough to express it.

Should we do more to educate our less enthusiastic brethren rather than jumping ship? Perhaps. It does no one good to belittle their cause, however.

I would think that after half a century of the Roman Church’s wholesale loss of its patrimony more Latins would be sympathetic to their Eastern brethren who have had to suffer through this for much much longer.

This Latin is quite grateful for the those knowledgeable about the Eastern churches on this site. My 2 cents is that no matter which of the Catholic churches we belong to, we should all be concerned about the loss of patrimony. There shouldn’t be a double standard regarding the seriousness of its loss or the concern that it should cause. Please keep on educating all of your Catholic brethren!

AzzurriFan

 

[bilop]

This Latin is quite grateful for the those knowledgeable about the Eastern churches on this site. My 2 cents is that no matter which of the Catholic churches we belong to, we should all be concerned about the loss of patrimony. There shouldn’t be a double standard regarding the seriousness of its loss or the concern that it should cause. Please keep on educating all of your Catholic brethren!

AzzurriFan

Concur. I love the fact we have 23 sui juris Churches and love hearing about the Eastern/Oriental traditions.

God Bless

 

[Eoin_Deburg]

Hi

Thank you all for your replies. I am sorry if the question offended some, that was not my wish. If I read into some of the posts what I took as anger towards the RCC that was not there, again I am sorry.

Just trying to learn just a little bit about the Eastern Catholic mindset.
Thanks for your insight.

 

[Maron_Ignatius]

There were martyrs on both sides and the history is tragic.

The communists took our churches and gave them to the Orthodox. When the post-communist courts ruled that our churches had to be returned to us, the Orthodox, in many cases gutted and destroyed them. This is in the last 15 years, not really even yet history.

Catholics have also behaved badly throughout history as well, there is no doubt.

This is just part of the brokenness of humanity. Only the Holy Spirit can bring about the healing that we need, but we must cooperate with faith and good will toward one another.

In some case it has even been that long, it is still a reality: greco-catolica.org/a466-Scrisoare-adresata-doamnei-Hillary-Rodham-Clinton-Secretar-de-Stat-al-Departamentului-de-Stat-al-SUA-cu-privire-la-situatia-de-la-Sapanta-si-discriminarea-greco-catolicilor-in-Romania.aspx

It breaks my heart that this is happening, I actually had a cousin who came in to the Romanian Orthodox church here in the U.S. The Romanian Orthodox Church here is very ecumenical so this surprised and greatly saddened me that this is happening.

 

[runningdude]

This is such a simplistic way of putting it that it does no justice to the actual events or the people involved. If you want to dismiss Orthodoxy on the basis of purported collaboration with Communist Russia, then how do you explain the actions of the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages starting from the Crusades, Inquisition, and other actions done in conjunction with the medieval kingdoms?

Yes, I should emphasized that it was the ‘civil’ authorities and their stooges doing the oppression during the Soviet era. I also considered mentioning how the overkill on the EC’s part, seizing many Orthodox church buildings in the 90’s that were never Eastern Catholic, but didn’t want to muddle the issue.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, I should emphasized that it was the ‘civil’ authorities and their stooges doing the oppression during the Soviet era. I also considered mentioning how the overkill on the EC’s part, seizing many Orthodox church buildings in the 90’s that were never Eastern Catholic, but didn’t want to muddle the issue.

But it is muddled by the perceived notion that the Orthodox Church en large is in cahoots with the Soviets. I think when dealing with such topics, either deal it in a manner that is fair to all, or don’t touch the topic at all. Because the earlier post gives off a “Orthodox bad, Catholic good” impression. Every Church has some blemish on her history.