EC/EO View on the Ratio of Saved-to-Damned

[nsper7]

In several other threads on this forum (i.e. this one), discussions have been raised on what the ratio of Saved/Damned is. Many big-name Western Saints have commented that they believe the majority (often the VAST majority, read St. Leonard’s On the Little Number of those Saved for some really dreadful statistics on the matter).

What is the Eastern view on this sort of thing? For example, do any Eastern Saints give such dreadful statistics or discuss the matter? I know one of the biggest complaints made against the Latin Church by the Eastern Churches (whether in communion with Rome or not) seems to be the issue of the more legalistic Western philosophy versus a more mystical Eastern philosophy (my understanding is that the East views sin as more a sickness/disease requiring a cure and offering a chance for spiritual growth while the Western view is more that sin requires punishment, eternal and temporal, etc.).

 

[Addai]

I’ve read a few prophecies from various Starets on the subject…

FEW ARE SAVED

The venerable Fr. Lavrentii of Chernigov would frequently repeat that souls go to hell just like people come out of a church on a feastday; but they go to Heaven like people go to church on a weekday. Batiushka would frequently sit and weep: he pitied the people who were perishing. “How many people there are, who are packed in the inferno like herring in a barrel,” starets Lavrentii would say. His spiritual children would console him, but he would reply, through his tears: “You do not see. If you could but see… How pitiful it is! And in the last days, hell will be filled with young people.”

apostle1.com/pascha_2006/prophecies_of_starets_lavren.htm

 

[Addai]

PROPHECIES by St. Nilus the Myrrhstreamer of Mount Athos (1651)

…And this will result from the fact that the antichrist wants to be lord over everything and become the ruler of the whole universe, and he will produce miracles and fantastic signs. He will also give depraved wisdom to an unhappy man so that he will discover a way by which one man can carry on a conversation from one end of the earth to the other. At that time, men will also fly through the air like birds and descend to the bottom of the sea like fish. And when they have achieved all this, these unhappy people will spend their lives in comfort without knowing, poor souls, that it is the deceit of the antichrist. And the impious one! - he will so complete science with vanity, that it will go off the right path and lead people to lose faith in the existence in God.

…Then God will see the downfall of the human race and will shorten the days for the sake of those few who are being saved, because the enemy wants to lead even the chosen into temptation, if that is possible.

members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/St.%20Nilus.htm

 

[nsper7]

I’ve read a few prophecies from various Starets on the subject…

FEW ARE SAVED

The venerable Fr. Lavrentii of Chernigov would frequently repeat that souls go to hell just like people come out of a church on a feastday; but they go to Heaven like people go to church on a weekday. Batiushka would frequently sit and weep: he pitied the people who were perishing. “How many people there are, who are packed in the inferno like herring in a barrel,” starets Lavrentii would say. His spiritual children would console him, but he would reply, through his tears: “You do not see. If you could but see… How pitiful it is! And in the last days, hell will be filled with young people.”

apostle1.com/pascha_2006/prophecies_of_starets_lavren.htm

I thought the Eastern Orthodox/Eastern Catholics do not see Hell as a place, but more as how one experiences God and His love.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christian_beliefs#The_Concept_of_Hell

 

[trophybearer]

PROPHECIES by St. Nilus the Myrrhstreamer of Mount Athos (1651)

…And this will result from the fact that the antichrist wants to be lord over everything and become the ruler of the whole universe, and he will produce miracles and fantastic signs. He will also give depraved wisdom to an unhappy man so that he will discover a way by which one man can carry on a conversation from one end of the earth to the other. At that time, men will also fly through the air like birds and descend to the bottom of the sea like fish. And when they have achieved all this, these unhappy people will spend their lives in comfort without knowing, poor souls, that it is the deceit of the antichrist. And the impious one! - he will so complete science with vanity, that it will go off the right path and lead people to lose faith in the existence in God.

I may be wrong and if I am forgive me, but I’m pretty sure I remember reading that this prophecy is spurious.

…Then God will see the downfall of the human race and will shorten the days for the sake of those few who are being saved, because the enemy wants to lead even the chosen into temptation, if that is possible.

members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/St.%20Nilus.htm

 

[nsper7]

I may be wrong and if I am forgive me, but I’m pretty sure I remember reading that this prophecy is spurious.

Thanks. That website looked a little…sketchy, but I don’t know.

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

I thought the Eastern Orthodox/Eastern Catholics do not see Hell as a place, but more as how one experiences God and His love.

The understanding of Hell as resisting God’s divine love eternally is the best explanation of the experience of Hell, and the one which should inform all other imagery. But to deny illustrations that refer to locales would be absurd, as the Savior Himself does just that. We have all sorts of different imagery to describe condemnation/damnation/Hell such as Gehenna and Outer Darkness. The fact is that all of these images are meant to give us some taste of a reality which is beyond our rational faculties, and must be put into terms and concepts that we can understand. Hence even the “judgement seat” and all such imagery are anthropomorphisms of a dispassionate and Good God.

We likewise describe “Heaven” as a location of sorts from time to time, i.e. “I have prepared a place for you” et cetera, but trying to understand moving infinitely into God’s Love, into God Himself in theosis in terms of places and locations isn’t always entirely helpful. We know that we will have physical bodies in a restored and renewed cosmos, but that the bodies we have now are just the seed which is planted in the ground. The glories which are to come are beyond comprehension, and trying to understand these Mysteries as either places or experiences isn’t the best way to go about it. It’s a bit of both, but not like either, and beyond what we might fathom. May God have mercy on us and grant us a good entry into His Kingdom. Amen.

 

[Addai]

I thought the Eastern Orthodox/Eastern Catholics do not see Hell as a place, but more as how one experiences God and His love.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christian_beliefs#The_Concept_of_Hell

That is defintely a popular theological opinion especially in recent years with web sites etc. But it is just one of a few, it is not unanimous. There are saints, jurisdictions etc. whose description of the afterlife sounds more like the typical western one.

I will also add this personal insight when thinking on the issue. I once bought the notion of “state of being” rather then place for years. But when I considered the issue considering one of the foundational doctrines of Christianity and late Judaism (the doctrine of the Resurrection) I had to change my mind or rethink my position.

That doctrine was foundational for dealing with major heresies. The Saducees, the Gnostics, Manicheans, unbelieving Greek philsophers who disparaged the body… There a whole list of them.

 

[Addai]

When you consider that the body does anchor the person in a certain place. When you consider the body we receive will be glorified and thus can go on for all eternity… Why not have these things be places as more then just a figure of speech? And doublely so, especially when you consider various passages of scripture that connotate this.

If Orthodoxy “celebrates matter” with the Sacraments and sacramentals, honors Jesus as Pantocrator, proclaims that icons of Christ are a repudiation of Arianism and demonstrate the doctrine of the Incarnation… Then why should this be any different? This likewise would be a manifestation of doctrine that would fit into what great writers like St. John of Damscus, St. Issac the Syrian etc. have said on other subjects regarding the liturgy, incarnation etc.

 

[Addai]

That is defintely a popular theological opinion especially in recent years with web sites etc. But it is just one of a few, it is not unanimous. There are saints, jurisdictions etc. whose description of the afterlife sounds more like the typical western one.

.

"HELL, unpopular as it is to modern people, is real. The Orthodox Church understands hell as a place of eternal torment for those who willfully reject the grace of God. Our Lord once said, “If your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched – where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-45). He challenged the religious hypocrites with the question: “How can you escape the condemnation of hell?” (Matthew 23:33). His answer is, “God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved” (John 3:17). There is a day of judgement coming, and there is a place of punishment for those who have hardened their hearts against God. It does make a difference how we will live this life. Those who of their own free will reject the grace and mercy of God must forever bear the consequences of that choice. "

some web sites where this view can be found

antiochian.org/1123706666

ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/catechism.html

fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/catechism_ext.htm

In looking at this issue, (the notion of hell as state of being) is a bit of a theologumen that has been popularized by the Greek Church. Converts and apologists in the last few decades have really run with it because it is a bit of a great talking point / bragging rights showing Eastern Orthodox Mystique over the less sophisticaed Western Church/Theology.