Ecclesia Dei will issue statement to clarify Motu Proprio

[universalindult]

Rorate-Caeli excerpted this article today; this translation was posted at freeforumzone.leonardo.it/discussione.aspx?idd=354494&p=136

Ecclesia Dei will issue statement to clarify questions about the Pope’s Motu Proprio

Adapted from a Panorama article
by Ignazio Ingrao

The following is a translation adapted from an article by Ingrao - adapted, because I transposed his lead about the withdrawal of excommunication of the Lefebvrian bishops [which is pure speculation] in favor of the Ecclesia Dei clarifications on the Motu Proprio, which Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos himself announced earlier to be forthcoming.

The Ecclesia Dei commission under Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos is expected to issue soon a statement to clarify questions about proper execution of Pope Benedict’s Motu Proprio on the traditional Mass.

Some aspects of its application have been the cause of misunderstandings and open conflict in some parishes, particualrly in the diocese of Milan and in France and Germany.

Among the questions are what contitutes a ‘stable group’ for purposes of requesting the parish priest to celebrate the teaditional Mass on a regular basis.

The ruling will not state a minimum number but will state what other criteria will determine what is a ‘stable group’.

Other points to be covered:

• The Motu Proprio applies to all rites within the Church, including the Ambrosian rite used in the diocese of Milan.
• Clarifications about the liturgical calendar, since the traditional rite observed some feasts that have been suppressed or made optional in the Novus Ordo.
• Clarifications about the rites to be followed during the Paschal Triduum, with a possibility that the Good Friday prayer about the Jews will be eliminated.

In Venice, Cardinal Angelo Scola, Patriarch of Venice, has signed an agreement in which the Mass requirements of the traditionalists will be entrusted to Fr Konrad Loewenstein, a 48-year-old German priest of the Fraternity of St. Peter.

He has long had a special dispensation from the Vatican to celebrate Mass only in the traditional manner, and celebrates it daily at the church of San Simeon Piccolo.

“It’s the first written agreement of its kind in Italy, and perhaps, in the world,” said Alessandro Zangrando, who led Venetian traditionalists in negotiating it. He says more than 100 faithful have been taking part regularly in Fr. Loewenstein’s Masses.

Many traditionalists are also anticipating the first tradtional Mass that Pope Benedict XVI will say in public, expected to be the Sunday of December 2 or December 9. It would be a historic event significant to Catholic traditionalists around the world.

A decision has not been made, but some authoritative liturgists have reportedly been asked to prepare a memorandum on the advisability of such a papal Mass at this time.

It would not be held at St. Peter’s Basilica because a Pontifical Mass under the traditional rite apparently requires the presence of the Pontifical Court which Paul VI abolished.

If so, it would have to be celebrated elsewhere, as at the Basilica fo St. Paul outside the walls. In such cases, the old rite books allow a simplified Pontifical Mass.

Some traditionalists belonging to the Lefebvrian movement hope that Pope Benedict’s first celebration of the traitional Mass will be the occasion for him to announce withdrawal of the excommunication decree issued by Pope John Paul II in 1988 against the late Bishop Marcel Lefebvre and four bishops whom he ordained in defiance of the Vatican.

Since the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum came out in July, many formerly objecting traditionalist priests have ‘returned’ to the Church.

On November 10-11 the international association of traditionalists Una Voce will hold its world meeting in Rome. A highlight of the meeting will be the traditional Mass celebrated by French Cardinal Georges Cottier at the Church of Jesus and Mary on the via del Corso in central Rome.

The liberalized use of the traditional Mass has started something of a business boom. Pietro Siffi, founder and president of Italy’s Catholic anti-defamation league, has created a Website
(www.tridentinum.com)), where vestments, sacred vessels and other accessories used in the traditional rite may be purchased online.

Tridentum also organizes courses for seminarians and priests who desire training in the traditional rite, including home tutorials.

“These are courses of 2-3 days duration, given completely free of charge, by expert liturgists,” Siffi said. “We have dozens of requests pending so far.”

Panorama n. 44/2007

 

[I_Believe]

Thanks for posting this. It is rumored that Bishop Felay(SSPX) has stated he expects an announcement concerning the excommunications by the end of autumn.

God Bless our Holy Father B XVI

 

[universalindult]

Panorama: document from Ecclesia Dei soon
CATEGORY: SESSIUNCULUM — Fr. John Zuhlsdorf @ 10:24 am

The slick Italian weekly Panorama has in its current issue an article by Ignacio Ingrao: “Mass in Latin: the secrete report”.

Well… as I said… it’s an Italian weekly.

The article is too long for me to translate for you today, since I am working on my piece for the not as slick weekly The Wanderer (please subscribe). However, here are the salient points as I see them.

“In the next few days” the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” will put out its document to clarify some points about Summorum Pontificum.

Ingrao’s article looks at the question of what a “group” might be in a parish. “What is to be understood by a stable group of the faithful? Is there a minimum number (of people) required? The document will respond to these questions: without fixing criteria which are too rigid concerning a number (of people), it will offer some parameters for judging the stable nature (“stabilità”) of a group of traditionalists. And it will confirm that the new norms desired by the Pope are applicable to all the rites, including the Ambrosian.”

“Also expected are indications about the liturgical calendar, since the old rite observes feasts that are suppressed or made optional in the new rite.”

Clarifications will not be missing about the celebration of the Easter Triduum and among the prayers for Good Friday the invocation about the conversion of the Jews, harshly criticized by the Jewish comnunity, could be eliminated."

There is some discussion of a new parish established in Venice by Card. Scola with the aid of the FSSP… as if someone need extra reasons to visit Venice… but I digress.

“Traditionalists are also anxiously awaiting another important event for either 2 or 9 December: Benedict XVI could celebrate a Mass in Latin according to the old rite of St. Pius V. … It is to be excluded that the celebration could be carried out in St. Peter’s, since the old rite forsees the presence of the pontifical court which Paul VI abolished. It was proposed to celebrate the Mass far away from St. Peter’s, for example in the Basilica of St. Paul outside-the-walls. In such a case, the old rite foresees a simplified papal Mass without need of the court. Traditionalists hope that on such an occasion the Pope would announce the withdrawl of the excommunication.”

Those are the most important parts of the article, though the last one swerved into fantasyland for a moment: but this is an Italian publication.

 

[parvenu74]

Let’s see… if we heard rumors about “a motu proprio that will free-up the TLM” about a year and a half before Summorum Pontificum was released, that means I can pencil this reported document onto my “things to read” list for April of 2009.

 

[universalindult]

Let’s see… if we heard rumors about “a motu proprio that will free-up the TLM” about a year and a half before Summorum Pontificum was released, that means I can pencil this reported document onto my “things to read” list for April of 2009.

I’d bet money this will be published before the end of 2007, probably before the end of November, possibly “within days” even.

Then again, many folks bet Summorum Pontificum would NEVER be published, and that all the rumors were just…rumors.

This Pope is not his predecessor. I expect plenty more pleasant surprises, even before April 2009 (think revised Novus Ordo that will drive the Trautpersons insane)

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

It would not be held at St. Peter’s Basilica because a Pontifical Mass under the traditional rite apparently requires the presence of the Pontifical Court which Paul VI abolished.

Well then, let’s go ahead and reinstall the Pontifical Court.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

This Pope is not his predecessor. I expect plenty more pleasant surprises, even before April 2009 (think revised Novus Ordo that will drive the Trautpersons insane)

I’m not too sure what you mean by the above. The old Holy Father labored for years while he was very, very sick. Pope Benedict has always seemed to regard Pope John Paul II with reverence and love, asking us to pray for his canonization.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well then, let’s go ahead and reinstall the Pontifical Court.

Could the pope not simply dispense with the need for the Pontifical Court (I don’t think I’d hold my breath waiting for its reconstitution). This is where I think some traditionalists are going to be disappointed if they imagine the Tridentine offered today will be held in a state of stasis.

 

[Corki]

Could the pope not simply dispense with the need for the Pontifical Court (I don’t think I’d hold my breath waiting for its reconstitution). This is where I think some traditionalists are going to be disappointed if they imagine the Tridentine offered today will be held in a state of stasis.

I think he probably could but what exactly is the Pontifical Court?

 

[universalindult]

This Pope is not his predecessor. I expect plenty more pleasant surprises, even before April 2009 (think revised Novus Ordo that will drive the Trautpersons insane)

I’m not too sure what you mean by the above.

I simply mean that the current Pope is working much more swiftly for the return of traditional Catholicism than his predecessor.

Pope JPII’s first TLM indult was in 1984, six years after his election. It had minimal effect. The 1988 TLM indult was hardly better received by the bishops, the vast majority of dioceses did not respond to it and Pope JPII did nothing to change that status quo until he died.

Our present Pope has published Summorum Pontificum within two years of becoming pope, and Ecclesia Dei is already on the cusp of publishing guidelines to circumvent recalcitrant bishops. Our present Pope is not paralyzed into inaction by the false notions of “collegiality” of VII. His documents are not going to be permitted to become “dead-on-arrival” by modernist bishops.

i.e.,

…This Pope is not his predecessor.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I simply mean that the current Pope is working much more swiftly for the return of traditional Catholicism than his predecessor.

Pope JPII’s first TLM indult was in 1984, six years after his election. It had minimal effect. The 1988 TLM indult was hardly better received by the bishops, the vast majority of dioceses did not respond to it and Pope JPII did nothing to change that status quo until he died.

Our present Pope has published Summorum Pontificum within two years of becoming pope, and Ecclesia Dei is already on the cusp of publishing guidelines to circumvent recalcitrant bishops. Our present Pope is not paralyzed into inaction by the false notions of “collegiality” of VII. His documents are not going to be permitted to become “dead-on-arrival” by modernist bishops.

i.e.,

…This Pope is not his predecessor.

I don’t think the Holy Father is working for the swift return of “traditional Catholicism” as some in the Traditinoal forum perceive “traditional Catholicism” to be or hope he will. He has simply liberated the Tridentine (for which we should all be thankful).

Also, the Second Vatican Council didn’t teach any false notion of collegiality. It taught a true one (as ratified by a Supreme Pontiff). Christ established the Apostolic college, the first bishops, and bishops today are the descendents of the Apostles. The Pope IS the head of that college and the bishops cannot operate apart from communion with him as he can from them, but he does not govern the Church alone, ie, Christ did not only establish the papacy, with apostolic vicars to represent him.

 

[universalindult]

Also, the Second Vatican Council didn’t teach any false notion of collegiality.

I should have been more clear.

Dissenting bishops ignoring Vatican directives and asserting liberal nonsense in place of orthodoxy and orthopraxis is nowhere to be found in the documents of VII. The same bishops ignoring all attempts by Rome to rein them in, is nowhere to be found in the documents of VII.

There is indeed a false notion of collegiality that paralyzed JPII and arose from the false spirit of VII.

Pope Benedict XVI’s papacy is as much about regaining the proper authority and power of the papacy - which was lost, or given away, over the past 4 decades - as it is about restoring Catholicism and tradition in her liturgy and theology.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I should have been more clear.

Dissenting bishops ignoring Vatican directives and asserting liberal nonsense in place of orthodoxy and orthopraxis is nowhere to be found in the documents of VII. The same bishops ignoring all attempts by Rome to rein them in, is nowhere to be found in the documents of VII.

There is indeed a false notion of collegiality that paralyzed JPII and arose from the false spirit of VII.

Pope Benedict XVI’s papacy is as much about regaining the proper authority and power of the papacy - which was lost, or given away, over the past 4 decades - as it is about restoring Catholicism and tradition in her liturgy and theology.

Well said.

 

[Aramis]

The issuance of a clarification could be good, if they word it right. If not, it may muddy the waters far further.

Let us hope they take the time needed to make the intent perfectly clear.

And I wouldn’t be expecting a blanket lifting of the excommunication of the 4 SSPX Bishops, nor lifting the suspension of the SSPX priests. Their error is in disobedience, both of Canon Law and the Pope. Pope Benedict seems not to be ready to let them come back without public admission of that error.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I should have been more clear.

Dissenting bishops ignoring Vatican directives and asserting liberal nonsense in place of orthodoxy and orthopraxis is nowhere to be found in the documents of VII. The same bishops ignoring all attempts by Rome to rein them in, is nowhere to be found in the documents of VII.

There is indeed a false notion of collegiality that paralyzed JPII and arose from the false spirit of VII.

Pope Benedict XVI’s papacy is as much about regaining the proper authority and power of the papacy - which was lost, or given away, over the past 4 decades - as it is about restoring Catholicism and tradition in her liturgy and theology.

I agree with this.

 

[BobP123]

I should have been more clear.

Dissenting bishops ignoring Vatican directives and asserting liberal nonsense in place of orthodoxy and orthopraxis is nowhere to be found in the documents of VII. The same bishops ignoring all attempts by Rome to rein them in, is nowhere to be found in the documents of VII.

There is indeed a false notion of collegiality that paralyzed JPII and arose from the false spirit of VII.

Pope Benedict XVI’s papacy is as much about regaining the proper authority and power of the papacy - which was lost, or given away, over the past 4 decades - as it is about restoring Catholicism and tradition in her liturgy and theology.

That’s pretty much on target. Collegiality has developed into a “Rome doesn’t tell me what to do” mentality. It has also led to the creation of more cultures, hardly indicative of a Catholic/Universal philosophy or theology. The whole world isn’t going to heaven this way, at least not the Catholic way. Either you recognize the Pope or you don’t. The sedevacantists are open with their beliefs of vacancy at the top. Can some of these bishops be that far behind?

 

[TraditionalCath]

Thanks for posting this. It is rumored that Bishop Felay(SSPX) has stated he expects an announcement concerning the excommunications by the end of autumn.

God Bless our Holy Father B XVI

if that is so, it would be announced on their website, or there would be some kind of letter written and posted on the site. there has been no news on that front at all. so don’t pay attention to rumors.
there has been no further news about bishop fellay speaking with the holy father, or any negotiations at all. so if there is some kind of talk going on, we wont know about it until after the fact.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Paul VI not only abolished the TLM, he made it impossible for future popes to ever celebrate it at St. Peter’s again?

When he gets to St. Peter at heaven’s gate he’s got a LOT of explaining to do

 

[TraditionalCath]

Paul VI not only abolished the TLM, he made it impossible for future popes to ever celebrate it at St. Peter’s again?

When he gets to St. Peter at heaven’s gate he’s got a LOT of explaining to do

it is not up to us to speculate on any one persons judgement before God. it is entirely up to Him who is eternal to judge all men. be it the pope or not. we therefore should not speculate who has what to explain. that is between that man and God.

 

[TMC]

Some traditionalists belonging to the Lefebvrian movement hope that Pope Benedict’s first celebration of the traitional Mass will be the occasion for him to announce withdrawal of the excommunication decree issued by Pope John Paul II in 1988 against the late Bishop Marcel Lefebvre and four bishops whom he ordained in defiance of the Vatican.

Isn’t Lefebvre dead? I don’t think you can un-excommunicate dead people.