Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 Confused, contradicts immortality?

[chaz0426]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [a] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The New American version isn’t that different either. I just came across this, doesn’t this contradict the Immortality of the soul especially 5? I’m sure that’s not what it means but I’m confused over this one.

 

[Benadam]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [a] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The New American version isn’t that different either. I just came across this, doesn’t this contradict the Immortality of the soul especially 5? I’m sure that’s not what it means but I’m confused over this one.

bold emphasis added by me
Theology of the soul developed over time. I think the author is a man who had done it all. Had sought happiness in the world and came to understand it isn’t found in this life. I think earthly life as a pilgrimage of the soul is dawning through the sacred writers mind.

 

[diggerdomer]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [a] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The New American version isn’t that different either. I just came across this, doesn’t this contradict the Immortality of the soul especially 5? I’m sure that’s not what it means but I’m confused over this one.

It might. No big deal. The soul and the immortality of the soul were concepts that were understood gradually, over time.

 

[fulbert4605]

i take this as the spirit speaking about the body. Certainly not a contradiction.

One would do well to bear in mind at all times we are composed of human and spiritual nature. That is, the body and the spirit. And these two natures are at war nearly constantly.

You walk past a hot, metal object on a bright, sunny day. The spirit cries out and wills that you touch this object and offer this temporal suffering humbly submitting it to God for a worthy cause. Yet, the body cries out to keep walking and to make sure to avoid that metal object lest you feel physical pain. The spirit and body submit their cases to the mind where with your free will ultimately make a decision.

If you choose to obey your body and walk right past the hot, metal object and do not touch it you gain nor lose anything (perhaps). Okay.

If you touch the hot, metal object for a few moments and offer it up, what is a temporal punishment has the potential to become an everlasting joy; you are storing up your spiritual graces for Eternity. And what were those few seconds of pain in exchange? Hardly anything! Think, what pain will this bring you in the future? None. So why does it matter after those few moments of pain? To the body, it doesn’t. To the soul, perhaps, since you may have gained favor with God.

Speaking of bodily death (as in the Verse 5 here), those who seemed as something in this world by others are usually scarcely thought of after they pass away. How many lives are lost by the passage of time? And, yet, what would it avail you if you were to be praised after your death if your ears can no longer hear the praise anyway? These words taken by themselves are depressing to the body but this serves as proof of the existence of the soul. Everything is for naught without a soul.

Truly the things of this world, bound by time, are vanity when compared in the face of Eternity. Just like a finite piece of dust cannot compare to an Infinite God.

Please remember these things in the future when choosing which to obey: the will of the body or the will of the spirit.

 

[Ron_Conte]

St. Thomas Aquinas: “nothing false can ever underlie the literal sense of Holy Writ.”
(Summa Theologica, I, 1, 10.)

{9:5} For the living know that they themselves will die, yet truly the dead know nothing anymore, nor do they have any recompense. For the memory of them is forgotten.

This refers to the body and to this life. When dead, the brain can no longer know anything, and any possible recompense in this life has reached an end.

{9:6} Likewise, love and hatred and envy have all perished together, nor have they any place in this age and in the work which is done under the sun.

Notice that the author says “in this age” in other words, in this life, “under the sun”. The Jews certainly believed in an after life, and although the Sadduccees denied it, most Jews believed in a resurrection. So even the Jews in ancient times understood this passage correctly to refer to this life.

{9:7} So then, go and eat your bread with rejoicing, and drink your wine with gladness. For your works are pleasing to God.
{9:8} Let your garments be white at all times, and let not oil be absent from your head.
{9:9} Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your uncertain life which have been given to you under the sun, during all the time of your vanity. For this is your portion in life and in your labor, with which you labor under the sun.
{9:10} Whatever your hand is able to do, do it earnestly. For neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge will exist in death, toward which you are hurrying.

Again, the finality of death as pertains to the limited human things of this life is presented. But there is no denial of an afterlife.

 

[puppypatrol]

This might help you with understanding.

usccb.org/nab/bible/ecclesiastes/intro.htm

It is helpful to know who wrote it and why.

 

[benedicter]

Ecclesiastes is a wonderful book to read. It ask all the questions - why, what for, what is the point…and so on.

To take one section without the whole context of the book can put you on the wrong track.

In Judaism traditionally there was no concept of soul apart from the body. There is no Hebrew word for ‘soul’ only Nefesh which is person/life. This is important and also very important for Catholicism. (We forget sometimes to keep body and soul together! We can get a bit gnostic! It is Resurrection which is the big hope).The idea of a soul is a Hellenist idea and this writer of Ecclesiastes wrote in the period when Israel was ruled by the Hellenist culture. So elements of it play with notions of afterlife - 3:21.

9:10 which you quote mentions Sheol which is a place for the dead, but someone else may know more about it. I think it was a shadowy place - a waiting place as it were until the Resurrection.

So the writer is pointing out the hopelessness and futile existence ‘under the sun’ and how to face life.

There is a key word in Ecclesiastes - vanity ‘all is vanity’. This is the Hebrew word Hebel. Hebel is the same word for Abel who was murdered by Cain! So the one with the acceptable offering yet unfruitful. Hebel I think points to the tragedy in life, the crisis when there is despair and hopelessness but the ‘small still voice’ whispers and where transcendence does breaks through and hope still lives.

So from Ecclesiastes with all its view of life and the world there is this word of hope -

And that is what the rest of the Bible answers.

Don’t forget to interpret within the WHOLE of the text and the WHOLE of the Canon.

So don’t be disturbed if there is no revealed theology of ‘life after death’ the soul living after the body. The book is still in that part of salvation history which has yet to be fulfilled in Christ. The writer is taking a ‘worm’s eye view of things’ and as I said a soul apart from the body is not Judaism in this time of its development. Remember Christ rose from the dead body and soul and the Resurrection is our hope. Heaven ‘now’ is the heavenly Church until all time is fulfilled and then there is the Resurrection and heaven and earth come together.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

When read in context, this quote basically says, “eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die and that’s that, the end.”

no Christian accepts the philosophy of “eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die.” Therefore, since the first half of the premise is false, how can anyone assume that the second half of the premise is correct?

 

[hatsoff]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [a] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The New American version isn’t that different either. I just came across this, doesn’t this contradict the Immortality of the soul especially 5? I’m sure that’s not what it means but I’m confused over this one.

Much of the Old Testament shows signs of redaction in stages. It seems to me that Ecclesiastes was originally a melancholy series of observations on the futility of life, which was adapted by scribes and editors to be compatible with Jewish theology.

I very much doubt the initial author believed in any kind of afterlife.

 

[diggerdomer]

When read in context, this quote basically says, “eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die and that’s that, the end.”

no Christian accepts the philosophy of “eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die.” Therefore, since the first half of the premise is false, how can anyone assume that the second half of the premise is correct?

See benedicter’s post, I think that should help.

 

[Bonnie]

I’ve been puzzling over Genesis 3:22-24, which also suggests no immortality without God’s direct intervention.

Then the Lord God said: “See! The man has become like one of us, knowing what is good and bad! Therefore, he must not be allowed to put out his had to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever.” The Lord God therefore banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he had been taken. When he expelled the man, he settled him east of the garden of Eden; and he stationed the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword, to guard the way to the tree of life.

My dh & I have been talking about this for the last few days, he saying that Adam & Eve had the preternatural gift of eternal life from the beginning, & me saying, “No. Genesis seems to be saying they did NOT have eternal life.”

This would back up my belief that hell is not eternal, because that would imply eternal life for the dammed. (I know this is not a teaching of the Church & have been struggling with it for quite a few years now.)

 

[benedicter]

I’ve been puzzling over Genesis 3:22-24, which also suggests no immortality without God’s direct intervention.

My dh & I have been talking about this for the last few days, he saying that Adam & Eve had the preternatural gift of eternal life from the beginning, & me saying, “No. Genesis seems to be saying they did NOT have eternal life.”

This would back up my belief that hell is not eternal, because that would imply eternal life for the dammed. (I know this is not a teaching of the Church & have been struggling with it for quite a few years now.)

I not quite sure what you are saying but going back to Ecclesiastes - the writer seems to ponder knowledge and eternal life - verse 3:10,11.

I think we need to make the distinction between what has been revealed and what is speculation. If mankind had not ‘fallen in Adam’ then there would be no need for ‘us to rise in Christ’. The redemption of humanity is somehow linked to death, that only God becoming human flesh and dying could overturn our ‘fall’. That should give reason to think, we must have fallen from something. I we are as we have always been and the creation God intended as we stand, then there would be no need for God to become human to save us. God could save us from transcendancy without becoming part of the creation.

As to hell and it being eternal. Judgment and love go together with the respect for man’s freedom to choose. It is better to accept the words of Jesus, that we should fear that which can kill a man’s body AND soul and not just his body. Rather though to live in the freedom of the Church in faith with the Sacraments.

As the Church teaches, there is no way THAT HAS BEEN REVEALED by which a man might be saved other than Baptism. This means that we are called and limited to knowledge of what has been revealed - salvation through Christ, the only way. The Curch also teaches that God is not limited to his own Sacraments, only we are.

That is the eternal tension right througout scripture - exclusive/inclusive. It is not resolvable and we have to hold them together within revelation. The Church does this well. We on the other hand want inclusivity and no exclusivity as then we are all okay whatever we do -the subtleties of the human mind! But not revealed and risky territory.

The other area you might like to explore to reconcile your concerns with ‘the damned having eternal life’ is the notion of time in eternity. God’s time is not our time. So find out from a philosopher what eternal time is - Peter Kreeft would be a good one.

As a thought the liturgy - the Sacraments has God’s time. As in the Eucharist we are in the eternal present. Christ’s sacrifice on Good Friday is with us at that moment. So for the dead - their lives are eternally present to them in God’s time. Not lived in chronological time. This is a marvellous thing. If you die young you lose none of your life! Also God ‘wipes away every tear’ so more marvellous.

 

[Benadam]

I’ve been puzzling over Genesis 3:22-24, which also suggests no immortality without God’s direct intervention.

My dh & I have been talking about this for the last few days, he saying that Adam & Eve had the preternatural gift of eternal life from the beginning, & me saying, “No. Genesis seems to be saying they did NOT have eternal life.”

This would back up my belief that hell is not eternal, because that would imply eternal life for the dammed. (I know this is not a teaching of the Church & have been struggling with it for quite a few years now.)

The tree of life would have just allowed human souls to be more like fallen angels. Once a sinner always a sinner.

 

[PJM]

=chaz0426-Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [a] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The New American version isn’t that different either. I just came across this, doesn’t this contradict the Immortality of the soul especially 5? I’m sure that’s not what it means but I’m confused over this one.

 

[PJM]

=chaz0426-Ecclesiastes 9:5-10 (New International Version)

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [a] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The New American version isn’t that different either. I just came across this, doesn’t this contradict the Immortality of the soul especially 5? I’m sure that’s not what it means but I’m confused over this one.

***Not at all! Kep in mind that this is a LONG time before Christ anf His Redemptive act.

All that is being said [and wisely so] is “that life too is a GIFT from God” so we are obliagted to use it wisely.

Once we are DEAD [physically] it is too late to enjoy this life, and we know now, too late to change our minds about where we sent ourselves for Eternity.***

Put it into the context of who was speaking, and to whom was the message intended?

Love and prayers,