Ecclesiastical Dogma?

[Thoughtfulone]

I get that a lot on this site and I am praying about it. Thankfully, my Church and the people in it that I have spoken to aren’t so quick to reject me altogether. But honestly, what am I supposed to think about an institution that says masturbation is worse than killing innocent people in a “just” war? Oh right. I’m NOT supposed to think.

 

[daughterofeve]

Actually you are supposed to think, just not that you may know more than the Infallible 2000 year old Church Christ left to “teach” you.

The Church doesn’t reject you, it cannot…you reject it, when you refuse to accept Christ’s teachings.

Re: catholicism.org/the-three-levels-of-magisterial-teaching.html#_ftn2

Divinely Revealed Doctrines

There are serious ramifications for rejecting teachings of this highest level. Cardinal Ratzinger’s DC strongly asserts that “whoever obstinately places them in doubt or denies them falls under the censure of heresy, as indicated by the respective canons of the Codes of Canon Law.”[11]

Definitive Doctrines

A more certain proof of the infallibility of this category comes from the following vigorous passage of DC:

Every believer, therefore, is required to give firm and definitive assent to these truths, based on faith in the Holy Spirit’s assistance to the Church’s Magisterium, and on the Catholic doctrine of the infallibility of the Magisterium in these matters.[15]

Non-definitive but authentic teachings

Cardinal Ratzinger’s DC distinguishes these teachings from those of the first two gradations:
To this paragraph belong all those teachings on faith and morals – presented as true or at least as sure, even if they have not been defined with a solemn judgment or proposed as definitive by the ordinary and universal magisterium. Such teachings are, however, an authentic expression of the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff or of the College of Bishops and therefore require religious submission of will and intellect.[33]

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Thank you for the information daughterofeve. It is helpful, I just sometimes find myself not only disagreeing with the Church on topics like this, but outright thinking that some of these pronouncements are absurd. masturbation is srong? Fine, I can buy that. It is definitely not ideal as far as upholding human dignity goes, so I can see it as being a venial sin, something that one should try not to do. But a MORTAL sin? Please! Something that literally EVERY single teenage boy is hardwired to do biologically is going to result in condemnation to Hell? O.k., so the Church selectively cites this Onan story from way back in the OT to back up this pronouncement. Well what about all of the other HUNDREDS of commandments and rules from the OT that are literally ignored? What about if a man has crushed testicles? The OT says he cannot enter “the assembly”. Why is this (and many other rules) ignored and other rules upheld?

O.K., so what about female masturbation? Women cannot spill their seed, so we’re good to go there. But, one might have sinful thoughts while masturbating, which is wrong. O.K., so what if one does not have these thoughts? What if one is just thinking about the grocery list or the laundry? Then there should be nothing sinful about it, right? It should be basically equivalent to getting a back massage, just a little relaxation.

Like I said, this is not even something I do EVER. I just find the Church’s position on it silly. ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that the Church says there is such a thing as a “just war” and that women and children killed as collateral damage during such a war incurs no sin on the perpetrator! WHAT???

So masturbation will send you straight to Hell, but killing women and children is fine as long as it is an accident during a “just war”.

It is this kind of foolishness that has to make every thinking person wonder what is going on in Rome and what Jesus would have thought about all this. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that Jesus would tell us that more guilt is incurred by the general who carpet bombs downtown Baghdad and hits schools and hospitals than by the 14-year-old boy trying to get rid of an embarrassing erection before he has to go to school in the morning.

How can a Church who believes the boy is going to Hell and the General is going to Heaven be correct?

 

[daughterofeve]

How can a Church who believes the boy is going to Hell and the General is going to Heaven be correct?

I have read quite a bit not as much as most but more than the average Mass attendant and I have never read anywhere the “Church” says anyone is going to “Hell”. The Church knows this is not theirs and does not dare tread there.

What you are looking for is someone to give you a degree of sin. OK! Let’s say you are in front of the Almighty on your judgment day. What are you going to say? Yes, I did that but compared to so & so it is only really a “little” evil. Remember you are in front of an infinite being to whom the largest blast you can imagine is nothing and a pin drop is deafening. Get it, there is no such thing as a “little” evil. There is only lack of sorrow and therefore lack of love.

Yes, a repentant serial killer will be forgiven, and yes, the unrepentant self abuser will not be.

What is boils down to is you are the custodian of your own soul. It is up to you to build your relationship with God. Your soul will never be at peace until it is in full union with its creator, and cannot be while in a state of sin. The “Church” is what Christ left to assist us in our journeys. Our roads are different, with God’s grace our destination the same.

Remember:

“there is more rejoicing in Heaven over one repentant sinner to enter heaven, than 1000 righteous ” (not a word for word quote)

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I have read quite a bit not as much as most but more than the average Mass attendant and I have never read anywhere the “Church” says anyone is going to “Hell”. The Church knows this is not theirs and does not dare tread there.

What you are looking for is someone to give you a degree of sin. OK! Let’s say you are in front of the Almighty on your judgment day. What are you going to say? Yes, I did that but compared to so & so it is only really a “little” evil. Remember you are in front of an infinite being to whom the largest blast you can imagine is nothing and a pin drop is deafening. Get it, there is no such thing as a “little” evil. There is only lack of sorrow and therefore lack of love.

Yes, a repentant serial killer will be forgiven, and yes, the unrepentant self abuser will not be.

What is boils down to is you are the custodian of your own soul. It is up to you to build your relationship with God. Your soul will never be at peace until it is in full union with its creator, and cannot be while in a state of sin. The “Church” is what Christ left to assist us in our journeys. Our roads are different, with God’s grace our destination the same.

Remember:

“there is more rejoicing in Heaven over one repentant sinner to enter heaven, than 1000 righteous ” (not a word for word quote)

Yes, but there ARE degrees of sin. Isn’t that the basic difference between mortal and venial sins? The Church decides which sins are mortal and which sins are venial and they say that this information comes from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. How they determined that masturbation is a hell-worthy offense based upon the story of Onan and so many other “sins” from the Old Testament seem to get a pass we will never know because it’s not in scripture. O.K., so the Church may not say “You are going to Hell”, but they DO say, “THIS is a mortal sin. If you die without confessing that sin or without a perfect act of contrition you go to Hell.” No room for argument. That’s as close to condemning someone as it gets.

The thing is, I could accept that if it made any sense at all and wasn’t so arbitrary. Again, how can masturbation be a mortal sin and the killing of innocents is not so long as the Church approves of a particular war? That is starting to sound dangerously close to being able to commit acts of horrible evil and get away with it because it fits the agenda of the Church…oh but don’t put your hand down your pants in a moment of weakness or else!

 

[davidv]

Yes, but there ARE degrees of sin. Isn’t that the basic difference between mortal and venial sins? The Church decides which sins are mortal and which sins are venial and they say that this information comes from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. How they determined that masturbation is a hell-worthy offense based upon the story of Onan and so many other “sins” from the Old Testament seem to get a pass we will never know because it’s not in scripture. O.K., so the Church may not say “You are going to Hell”, but they DO say, “THIS is a mortal sin. If you die without confessing that sin or without a perfect act of contrition you go to Hell.” No room for argument. That’s as close to condemning someone as it gets.

The thing is, I could accept that if it made any sense at all and wasn’t so arbitrary. Again, how can masturbation be a mortal sin and the killing of innocents is not so long as the Church approves of a particular war? That is starting to sound dangerously close to being able to commit acts of horrible evil and get away with it because it fits the agenda of the Church…oh but don’t put your hand down your pants in a moment of weakness or else!

The bolded part is not very accurate. The Church has very definitive rationale for why it teaches what it teaches. That the teaching cannot be found explicitly in Scripture is not required. Jesus left His teachings with the Church’s Magisterium who is guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

So either the Church is wrong in making masturbation a more serious sin than killing innocent women and children in a “just” war or this is actually one of Christ’s teachings. O.K. Note to self: Next time you feel like masturbating, just throw on a uniform and go carpet bomb a village instead.

I’m sorry, but does the Church’s position here honestly not bother anyone else? I don’t mean to be rude here but nobody is answering my question as to their personal opinion on this. I just keep getting the same quotes and reasoning why the Church cannot possibly be wrong.

 

[thistle]

So either the Church is wrong in making masturbation a more serious sin than killing innocent women and children in a “just” war or this is actually one of Christ’s teachings. O.K. Note to self: Next time you feel like masturbating, just throw on a uniform and go carpet bomb a village instead.

I’m sorry, but does the Church’s position here honestly not bother anyone else? I don’t mean to be rude here but nobody is answering my question as to their personal opinion on this. I just keep getting the same quotes and reasoning why the Church cannot possibly be wrong.

Why don’t you get it?
Christ gave authority to the Church (not to you or me). That means the teachings of the Church ARE the teachings of Christ so if you reject some of them then you are in effect rejecting Christ.
Are you saying your personal opinions on matters of faith and morals trump the teachings of Christ’s Church?
What next? Dying unrepentent homosexuals or heterosexual adulterers, or thieves or those who deliberately miss Mass on Sunday should not be condemned to Hell??

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Why don’t you get it?
Christ gave authority to the Church (not to you or me). That means the teachings of the Church ARE the teachings of Christ so if you reject some of them then you are in effect rejecting Christ.
Are you saying your personal opinions on matters of faith and morals trump the teachings of Christ’s Church?

I’m saying that when the Church makes prononcements that essentially make touching oneself more serious than murder, any thinking person would have to wonder where this judgement comes from and whether or not they have a political or social agenda. I am willing to accept and obey MANY teachings of the church that I find difficult or that i do not understand, but this goes way beyond that. The scriptural evidence of infallibility just doesn’t seem to be there. Yes, Christ instituted a Church. Yes that Church was the Catholic Church. I just don’t see why the Church has to be infallible lest everyone’s world comes crashing down.

What next? Dying unrepentent homosexuals or heterosexual adulterers, or thieves or those who deliberately miss Mass on Sunday should not be condemned to Hell??

That’s not for me to say, but wold that be so horrible?

 

[davidv]

I’m saying that when the Church makes prononcements that essentially make touching oneself more serious than murder, any thinking person would have to wonder where this judgement comes from and whether or not they have a political or social agenda. I am willing to accept and obey MANY teachings of the church that I find difficult or that i do not understand, but this goes way beyond that. The scriptural evidence of infallibility just doesn’t seem to be there. Yes, Christ instituted a Church. Yes that Church was the Catholic Church. I just don’t see why the Church has to be infallible lest everyone’s world comes crashing down.

What next? Dying unrepentent homosexuals or heterosexual adulterers, or thieves or those who deliberately miss Mass on Sunday should not be condemned to Hell??

That’s not for me to say, but wold that be so horrible?

Please provide an official Church document that declares masturbation more serious that murder. I would submit that this post actually demonstrates that you are not willing obey. It shows that you have decided, on you own, what is okay or not and you won’t accept anyones else’s judgement on the matter, particularly if it interfers with some personal preference of yours.

 

[thistle]

I’m saying that when the Church makes prononcements that essentially make touching oneself more serious than murder, any thinking person would have to wonder where this judgement comes from and whether or not they have a political or social agenda. I am willing to accept and obey MANY teachings of the church that I find difficult or that i do not understand, but this goes way beyond that. The scriptural evidence of infallibility just doesn’t seem to be there. Yes, Christ instituted a Church. Yes that Church was the Catholic Church. I just don’t see why the Church has to be infallible lest everyone’s world comes crashing down.

What next? Dying unrepentent homosexuals or heterosexual adulterers, or thieves or those who deliberately miss Mass on Sunday should not be condemned to Hell??

That’s not for me to say, but wold that be so horrible?

You seem obsessed with masturbation.
Please show us any document by the Church which states masturbation is more serious than murder. You are just talking hot air!

As for your last comment about it not being for you to say, at least you got one thing right!
God says you can’t be saved if you die unrepentent with these mortal sins. Don’t you even read the Bible.

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Oh dear. Incidentally, I have a suspicion that there is some confusion over what exactly is hardcore infallibility and what is the teachings of the Church. As far as I understand it, there are very few teachings which are held to be absolutely infallible.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

You seem obsessed with masturbation.
Please show us any document by the Church which states masturbation is more serious than murder. You are just talking hot air!

As for your last comment about it not being for you to say, at least you got one thing right!
God says you can’t be saved if you die unrepentent with these mortal sins. Don’t you even read the Bible.

Here is an explication of the CC’s Just War Doctrine:

"It is important to recognize what this principle does and does not require. While it does require strenuous efforts to avoid harming innocents, it does not require the result of no innocents being harmed. Such a result is impossible to guarantee. Even with the smartest of smart munitions, it is not possible to ensure that no non-combatants will be harmed in wartime. As tragic as it is, collateral damage to innocents is an inescapable consequence of war. Catholic theology recognizes this. It applies to such situations a well-established principle known as the law of double-effect. According to this law it is permissible to undertake an action which has two effects, one good and one evil, provided that certain conditions are met.

Although these conditions can be formulated in different ways, they may be enumerated as follows: (1) the action itself must not be intrinsically evil; (2) the evil effect must not be an end in itself or a means to accomplishing the good effect (in other words, it must be a foreseen but undesired side-effect of the action); and (3) the evil effect must not outweigh the good effect. If these three conditions are met, the action may be taken in spite of the foreseen damage it will do."

So, it IS morally acceptable to kill innocents under certain circumstances and no guilt of sin will be incurred by the perpetrator as long as the killing of innocents was not the main goal.

And now on Masturbation:

CCC 2352 clearly states: “MASTURBATION is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action”.

So, masturbation is a grave sin and the killing of innocents in war is not a grave sin so long as 1.) the Church agrees with the cause of the war and 2.) the innocents are not the main target and the general would “rather not” have to kill them (which I’m sure is a huge consolation to the widows and orphans left behind).

And there you have it.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Oh dear. Incidentally, I have a suspicion that there is some confusion over what exactly is hardcore infallibility and what is the teachings of the Church. As far as I understand it, there are very few teachings which are held to be absolutely infallible.

And yes, I can’t get a straight answer on here as to what is infallible and what isn’t. It seems to me that one would be bound to follow any infallible beliefs of the Church but that one is given more freedom of conscience regarding beliefs which are not?

 

[clmowry]

But honestly, what am I supposed to think about an institution that says masturbation is worse than killing innocent people in a “just” war? Oh right. I’m NOT supposed to think.

Where does the Church teach that killing innocent people in a “just” war is less sinful than masturbation?

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

Something that literally EVERY single teenage boy is hardwired to do biologically is going to result in condemnation to Hell?

Gospel

Jesus said to his disciples:
"You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery.
But I say to you,
everyone who looks at a woman with lust
has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
If your right eye causes you to sin,
tear it out and throw it away.
It is better for you to lose one of your members
than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna.
And if your right hand causes you to sin,
cut it off and throw it away.
It is better for you to lose one of your members
than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.

It seems pretty clear that Christ has called out lust as a mortal sin right up there with adultery: just looking with lust; no physical act whatsoever to compound the sin involved.

Do you really profess that masturbation is nothing more than a “hardwired” physical act that is somehow less sinful than “just” lust alone?

You don’t think there to be any lust involved in the act?

The Church’s teaching on the subject is not based on some irrational pick and choose from Old Testament rules.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

And yes, I can’t get a straight answer on here as to what is infallible and what isn’t. It seems to me that one would be bound to follow any infallible beliefs of the Church but that one is given more freedom of conscience regarding beliefs which are not?

You are bound to follow all Church teaching whether it is permanently defined dogma or a temporary discipline. i.e. It does not matter weather Church teaching on masturbation is Dogma or a simple discipline.

The only difference it might make is whether or not there is the possibility that the teaching might change.

The teaching in place at the moment is still the “law of the land.”

Because this is true, there isn’t a particular need to go through a detailed process of defining the theological status of every teaching.

Usually teachings don’t see that kind of rigor unless a change is being considered.

BTW, Have you actually read the Catechism’s teaching on the subject of masturbation?

“2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.”

That’s it? What do you find wrong in the teaching?

Chuck

 

[skeyes]

Thoughtfulone, By this post I am reaching out to you to tell you that sin grieves God. As we travel our journey to God we are brought to Holiness by the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The effect of this prompting is that we will be made aware of the sins in our lives. Many times the sins may be brought up one at a time. If we saw our souls as God does we would probably be aghast. So as the sins are brought to our conscience, we must deal with them. We may want to define our shortcoming as something other than sin, but the Holy Spirit continues to show us our sin. As Jesus draws us to Himself we are able through Grace to deal with those sins, that is, confess them to a Priest in reconciliation. Now this doesn’t mean that we will forever be free from the temptation, because the sin may linger as a temptation for a very long period of time, but we are given the Grace to say “no” each and every time.

Life is a battlefield of our overcoming, through Grace, the sins in our life. I know that it continues until we die. But, everytime we chose God instead of ourselves, we remain in Grace and gain strength from being tested.

I hope you will find solace in this. Trust that you are being purified through fire for a great purpose.

In Christ,

Stan

 

[Thoughtfulone]

You are bound to follow all Church teaching whether it is permanently defined dogma or a temporary discipline. i.e. It does not matter weather Church teaching on masturbation is Dogma or a simple discipline.

The only difference it might make is whether or not there is the possibility that the teaching might change.

The teaching in place at the moment is still the “law of the land.”

Because this is true, there isn’t a particular need to go through a detailed process of defining the theological status of every teaching.

Usually teachings don’t see that kind of rigor unless a change is being considered.

BTW, Have you actually read the Catechism’s teaching on the subject of masturbation?

“2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. “Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.”

That’s it? What do you find wrong in the teaching?

Chuck

Chuck, for men, yes, I really do believe it is essentially “hardwired” in them to masturbate, especially young men. Boys get erections that they cannot controol and then just have to walk around with them in discomfort, even pain, not to mention the embarrassment of a visible erection through clothing in high school. This is a physical thing. Any human being, man or woman, could masturbate with no lust involved, no thoughts of sex. The pleasure gained in this way might even be akin to a nice soak in a hot tub, just something relaxing to relieve stress and tension.

What I find wrong with the teaching is that I do not consider it to be grave matter because the sin is not in the body, but in the mind. If one is thinking about one’s wife and is fighting a war and away from her for a year, how can that be a mortal sin? If a boy is doing it just to get rid of an embarrassing physical problem, how can that be a mortal sin? It is silly to categorically state that masturbation is simply evil because people do it for MANY different reasons. Not to mention the fact that 2000 years ago, people generally got married at 14 or 15 years of age, practically at the onset of puberty. It’s a bit different nowadays, don’t you think? i feel sorry for people trying to remain chaste until the age of 25 or 30. Not to mention the fact that people are made to feel evil and guilty for having VERY natural sexual feelings that cannot be helped.

I feel even sorrier for the priests who are told that they cannot be married and that they cannot masturbate or they will go to Hell. Why all the guilt over somethingd that is practically a physical necessity? People claim “natural law” for reasons why homosexuality is sinful, but they have no problem going completely against natural law when it comes to regular human sexuality.

 

[davidv]

Chuck, for men, yes, I really do believe it is essentially “hardwired” in them to masturbate, especially young men. Boys get erections that they cannot controol and then just have to walk around with them in discomfort, even pain, not to mention the embarrassment of a visible erection through clothing in high school. This is a physical thing. Any human being, man or woman, could masturbate with no lust involved, no thoughts of sex. The pleasure gained in this way might even be akin to a nice soak in a hot tub, just something relaxing to relieve stress and tension.

What I find wrong with the teaching is that I do not consider it to be grave matter because the sin is not in the body, but in the mind. If one is thinking about one’s wife and is fighting a war and away from her for a year, how can that be a mortal sin? If a boy is doing it just to get rid of an embarrassing physical problem, how can that be a mortal sin? It is silly to categorically state that masturbation is simply evil because people do it for MANY different reasons. Not to mention the fact that 2000 years ago, people generally got married at 14 or 15 years of age, practically at the onset of puberty. It’[s a bit different nowadays, don’t you think? i feel sorry for people trying to remain chaste until the age of 25 or 30. Not to mention the fact that people are made to feel evil and guilty for having VERY natural sexual feelings that cannot be helped.

I feel even sorrier for the priests who are told that they cannot be married and that they cannot masturbate or they will go to Hell. Why all the guilt over somethingd that is practically a physical necessity? People claim “natural law” for reasons why homosexuality is sinful, but they have no problem going completely against natural law when it comes to regular human sexuality.

Ever hear of self mastery? No one has ever died from not having sex, either with themselves or someone else.
[/quote]