Ecclessiastical type question

  • Thread starter Thread starter Reformed_Rob
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Reformed_Rob

Guest
Ok, I’m wondering and need a little insight, I’m a little confused.

Maybe the question come down to being “in christ” as meaning “in the church” and how that is similar to, or maybe different than, being “related to the Church.”

Ok, from Lumen Gentium:
  1. Incorporated in the Church through baptism, the faithful are destined by the baptismal character for the worship of the Christian religion; reborn as sons of God they must confess before men the faith which they have received from God through the Church
Click to expand...
That’s obvious, join the Church by Baptism, clear enough.

Intro to the next few paragraphs…just before par. 14
And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.
Click to expand...
  1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
Click to expand...
Ok, that’s still kind of clear… but, well, this may help clear it up some…
14… They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”
Click to expand...
But, still my question…

Well, you get the idea, I shouldn’t have to cut and paste any more… My question, is, based on LG 15 and 16, and the above… Should the hypothetical “non-believers” who
Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience
Click to expand...
That’s in LG 16

… should they be considered to be in the Church? Are they even in the Church “in heart” or “in votu”? Or are they just saved but not in the church?

–
 
Reformed Rob:
… should they be considered to be in the Church? Are they even in the Church “in heart” or “in votu”? Or are they just saved but not in the church?
Click to expand...
Well, they aren’t formally in the Church. As for being in the Church “in heart”, I don’t know and will leave that to be answered by someone more familiar with that question.

As for being “saved”, though: “Those also CAN attain to salvation…”. It doesn’t say they WILL be saved. God alone knows how they have responded to the graces they have been given, to the best of their understanding and knowledge.
 
Thanks Sherlock…

I’m also looking forward to more comments. I should go into a Francis Sullivan book on my shelf for help with this. Soon I will.

Maybe this will help…

From Ad Gentes 7:
Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church’s preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself “by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it.”(17) Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity.
Click to expand...
I’ve got “baggage” coming to this issue. Please understand that, I’m trying to shake it off.

Another way of asking the question:

CCC 845: " … according to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she (the Church) is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood."

Ok, I understand that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through His Church, which is His body (CCC 846). But those who can attain salvation, can they attain it outside the Church? Even if they can, that would be considered abnormal, but that’s not the issue. My question is, is it possible to be saved “through the Church” "outside the Church?"

Please give reference for what you think. I’ll soon be reading a Professor of Ecclesiology on similar topics, Francis Sullivan.
 
I did some review. Maybe this will help clarify some.

Pope Paul VI, Apostolic Exhortation, ***EVANGELII NUNTIANDI

***Section 80:

And yet, if His Son came, it was precisely in order to reveal to us, by His word and by His life, the ordinary paths of salvation. And He has commanded us to transmit this revelation to others with His own authority. It would be useful if every Christian and every evangelizer were to pray about the following thought: men can gain salvation also in other ways, by God’s mercy, even though we do not preach the Gospel to them; but as for us, can we gain salvation if through negligence or fear or shame- what St. Paul called “blushing for the Gospel”[134] - or as a result of false ideas we fail to preach it?
***There, a consistent development of Vatican 2 thought on the “can gain salvation” issue. Not apart from God’s mercy, but apart from the Church???
 
Hey,

Hope I’m not just talking to myself here…

I read the CDF’s “Dominus Iesus” a few days ago. That helped a little bit. Great read, but just helped a little on that topic. Seems like uncharted theological waters in some ways. Well, soon there will be a map for all that, maybe in a couple hundred years.
 
I have worked on this issue for a few years. What after a read of Dominus Iesus still remains an issue?
 
40.png
mosher:
I have worked on this issue for a few years. What after a read of Dominus Iesus still remains an issue?
Click to expand...
Mosher,

Thanks for asking,

Sorry, it’s been some time since I’ve been on the site, but I’ll try to answer briefly.

In Sect. 16 and 17, where it’s discussed about “subsists in” and the Eastern Orthodox and “Protestant” type churches/ecclesial communities, that was helpful.

It seems like the term “subsists in” and discussion around that is what those who are interested in this subject should follow.

My original question still stands. Are people who are perhaps saved but not in the church “in body” saved outside the Church, or are they in the church “in heart/in voto”?

At this point, it seems clear enough to simply say that they are saved through Christ, which is to say, through the Church.
 
Somewhat related to this topic, certainly related to “Dominus Iesus” is this CDF document that John Paul II confirmed about the subject matter of Fr. Jacques Dupuis, S.J. book “Toward a Christian Theology of Religious Pluralism” where it says:
V. On the value and salvific function of the religious traditions
Click to expand...
  1. In accordance with Catholic doctrine, it must be held that «whatever the Spirit brings about in human hearts and in the history of peoples, in cultures and religions, serves as a preparation for the Gospel (cf. Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium, 16)».[15] It is therefore legitimate to maintain that the Holy Spirit accomplishes salvation in non-Christians also through those elements of truth and goodness present in the various religions; however, to hold that these religions, considered as such, are ways of salvation, has no foundation in Catholic theology, also because they contain omissions, insufficiencies and errors[16] regarding fundamental truths about God, man and the world.
Click to expand...
Furthermore, the fact that the elements of truth and goodness present in the various world religions may prepare peoples and cultures to receive the salvific event of Jesus Christ does not imply that the sacred texts of these religions can be considered as complementary to the Old Testament, which is the immediate preparation for the Christ event.[17]
Click to expand...
 
Reformed Rob:
Ok, I’m wondering and need a little insight, I’m a little confused.

Maybe the question come down to being “in christ” as meaning “in the church” and how that is similar to, or maybe different than, being “related to the Church.”

Ok, from Lumen Gentium:

That’s obvious, join the Church by Baptism, clear enough.

Intro to the next few paragraphs…just before par. 14

Ok, that’s still kind of clear… but, well, this may help clear it up some…

But, still my question…

Well, you get the idea, I shouldn’t have to cut and paste any more… My question, is, based on LG 15 and 16, and the above… Should the hypothetical “non-believers” who

That’s in LG 16

… should they be considered to be in the Church? Are they even in the Church “in heart” or “in votu”? Or are they just saved but not in the church?

–
Click to expand...
Catholics see the Church as made up of three parts, the Church militant (those on earth), the Church suffering (those in purgatory) and the Church triumphant (those in heaven).

Those in the Church suffering and the Church triumphant can say 100% that they are saved. Those of us on earth are work in progress as far as salvation s concerned.

Those on who while on earth who were not formal members of the Church may be saved (invincible ignorance) but it only through Christ that they are saved and they are saved in the Church being part of the Church triumphant and are in heaven.,

Pax

Brian
 
Brian Ingram:
Catholics see the Church as made up of three parts, the Church militant (those on earth), the Church suffering (those in purgatory) and the Church triumphant (those in heaven).

Those on who while on earth who were not formal members of the Church may be saved (invincible ignorance) but it only through Christ that they are saved and they are saved in the Church being part of the Church triumphant and are in heaven.,

Pax

Brian
Click to expand...
Thanks Brian,

That’s an interesting take that I’ve not seen precisely before. I think the next question would be how can a person who’s never entered the Church militant take part in the Church triumphant?

But that’s what the speculation is about, so any answers will be best guess based on interpretation at this point. The “in re” and “in votu” seems to be the most reasonable. In the Church “in reality” and in the Church “in desire.” Even an implicit desire…

-Rob
 
Dear brother Rob,

The Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic Church is the ordinary means of salvation. But the Catholic Church also wholeheartedly admits that there are extraordinary means of salvation. All those who do not have the God-ordained means of salvation (i.e., the Sacraments given through the hierarchical Church) can by all means be saved extraordinarily, such extraordinary means themselves given by God through the Church, though they may not be as obvious as the Sacraments.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Reformed Rob:
Mosher,

Thanks for asking,

Sorry, it’s been some time since I’ve been on the site, but I’ll try to answer briefly.

In Sect. 16 and 17, where it’s discussed about “subsists in” and the Eastern Orthodox and “Protestant” type churches/ecclesial communities, that was helpful.

It seems like the term “subsists in” and discussion around that is what those who are interested in this subject should follow.

My original question still stands. Are people who are perhaps saved but not in the church “in body” saved outside the Church, or are they in the church “in heart/in voto”?

At this point, it seems clear enough to simply say that they are saved through Christ, which is to say, through the Church.
Click to expand...
Yes they are saved outside of the Church but not apart from the Church. Outside the Church meaning that they do not officially wear the name badge of Catholic but not apart from the Church because the Church is the only means of salvation.
 
Reformed Rob:
Thanks Brian,

That’s an interesting take that I’ve not seen precisely before. I think the next question would be how can a person who’s never entered the Church militant take part in the Church triumphant?

But that’s what the speculation is about, so any answers will be best guess based on interpretation at this point. The “in re” and “in votu” seems to be the most reasonable. In the Church “in reality” and in the Church “in desire.” Even an implicit desire…

-Rob
Click to expand...
The Catholic Church answers it in this way:

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DECLARATION******
"DOMINUS IESUS"
******ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God’s plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.82
  1. With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”.83 Theologians are seeking to understand this question more fully.
Pax

Brian
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top