ECF and the Canon of Scripture/Purgatory

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I’m reading a book at the bidding of my friend, so that I ‘understand’ what I’m getting into with Catholicism. The book is entitled Roman Catholicism in the Light of Scripture, and as it may sound, it is heavily anti-Catholic. It seems to function off of abuses of selected quotes with own anti-Catholic agendas, but anyway…

There was a certain paragraph that made what seemed a rather ludicrous claim, or perhaps spot on, but I was just wondering if any of you could show me a better example of this. The book doesn’t give any information on this.
Practically the only point at which the church fathers are in full agreement with each other is in their acceptance of the canonical Scriptures as their final court of appeal, however widely their interpretations may differ.
So, the author says that the ECF’s were in full agreement on the canon of Scripture, which I don’t know about whether they were or not considering the Canon we now have wasn’t ratified until the Council of Carthage in 367, so what ECF’s is the author talking about? After Carthage? Certainly, they would be in agreement with the Church, that’s a given. Before, though, I’m assuming. Could someone find quotes about this?

Also, the author then goes on to say;
But from the Bible itself Rome can find no solid foundation for this truly monstrous doctrine [purgatory], while the whole trend of Scripture teaching is dead against it.
So, the ECF’s are both in full agreement with the Bible, but also, the Bible is dead set against teaching purgatory, yet the ECF’s spoke of purgatory?

Can someone get me quotes on both (canon of Scripture and purgatory)? This is burning me, for it seems like such a ludicrous statement to make! I can’t believe that the author would really fall that low to lie or fudge things.
 
There is a three volume set entitled, “The Faith of the Early Fathers” by William A. Jurgens. This is invaluable when referencing the teachings and writings of the Early Church Fathers. It might be worth your referencing these books while you are concurrently exploring this questionable resource. That’s my two cents… I will actually say that this time it’s worth a buck and a half…teachccd 🙂
 
I read your bio and you are very blessed to have found your girlfriend who is so committed to the faith. May the Lord be with you both…teachccd 🙂
 
Can someone get me quotes on both (canon of Scripture and purgatory)? This is burning me, for it seems like such a ludicrous statement to make! I can’t believe that the author would really fall that low to lie or fudge things.
Let me guess there are no footnotes or actual documents that the author is referencing here right?

If there were you would be able to go to those footnotes and lookup the documents they were talking about.

This seems to be pretty standard practice. Make a claim and see if it sticks. One of my favorites is the one about the Bible being only allowed in Latin in 600 A.D. , however when you ask for any documentation to back this claim up, you get silence. What has happened is one person made a chart of the history of the Bible part of which said
600 AD: LATIN was the Only Language Allowed for Scripture.
And then someone copied it and someone copied that one and so on and so forth.

While I understand that your friend thinks they are helping they are not. It is a little like asking a witch doctor to explain Pharmacology to you.

If you would like to understand “The Catholic Church in Light of Scripture” why not pick up the Catechism and a Bible?
 
There is a three volume set entitled, “The Faith of the Early Fathers” by William A. Jurgens. This is invaluable when referencing the teachings and writings of the Early Church Fathers. It might be worth your referencing these books while you are concurrently exploring this questionable resource. That’s my two cents… I will actually say that this time it’s worth a buck and a half…teachccd
Sounds good. I’ll look into it.
While I understand that your friend thinks they are helping they are not. It is a little like asking a witch doctor to explain Pharmacology to you.
If you would like to understand “The Catholic Church in Light of Scripture” why not pick up the Catechism and a Bible?
I understand. I’m already going to be getting a Douay Rheims (Sp?) and I have a Catechism. Very good books, both of them. 😃

I actually agreed to read the books just so I can see what misconceptions my friend has about the Church so I can correct him and hope to help him see that… well, Bishop Fulton Sheen said. “There are many who think they hate the Catholic Church, but in reality there are only a hundred or so.” paraphrasing. My friend makes some really ridiculous arguments, and he also wouldn’t allow me to correct him on several points.
 
There is a three volume set entitled, “The Faith of the Early Fathers” by William A. Jurgens. This is invaluable when referencing the teachings and writings of the Early Church Fathers. It might be worth your referencing these books while you are concurrently exploring this questionable resource. That’s my two cents… I will actually say that this time it’s worth a buck and a half…teachccd 🙂
Might want to check out the following topic here on this web site:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215917&page=4
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215917
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215917&page=3
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=215917&page=2
discussion of on line downloads for a free basic bible software program at www.esword.net and Catholic Modules for this program being produced for Bibles, commentaries, including early church teaches from the Church fathers and available at a number of esnips acount web sites free downloads.
Or you can check out this site for church father quotes on a number of doctrines.
cin.org/users/jgallegos/contents.htm
Or
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

Some of the quotes out there

Purgatory
“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that Imay be transferred to the place of the just.” Acts of Paul and Thecla(A.D. 160),in ANF,VIII:490
"Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd…He taught me … faithful writings…These words,I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray for Abercius." Inscription of Abercius(A.D. 190),in PAT,I:172
"Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? who died miserably with disease…But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me.Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy’s navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place ofpunishment." The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias,2:3-4(A.D. 202),in ANF,III:701-702

**"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian,The Chaplut,3(A.D. 211),in ANF,III:94
 
I’m reading a book at the bidding of my friend, so that I ‘understand’ what I’m getting into with Catholicism. The book is entitled Roman Catholicism in the Light of Scripture, and as it may sound, it is heavily anti-Catholic. It seems to function off of abuses of selected quotes with own anti-Catholic agendas, but anyway…

There was a certain paragraph that made what seemed a rather ludicrous claim, or perhaps spot on, but I was just wondering if any of you could show me a better example of this. The book doesn’t give any information on this.

So, the author says that the ECF’s were in full agreement on the canon of Scripture, which I don’t know about whether they were or not considering the Canon we now have wasn’t ratified until the Council of Carthage in 367, so what ECF’s is the author talking about? After Carthage? Certainly, they would be in agreement with the Church, that’s a given. Before, though, I’m assuming. Could someone find quotes about this?

Also, the author then goes on to say;

So, the ECF’s are both in full agreement with the Bible, but also, the Bible is dead set against teaching purgatory, yet the ECF’s spoke of purgatory?

Can someone get me quotes on both (canon of Scripture and purgatory)? This is burning me, for it seems like such a ludicrous statement to make! I can’t believe that the author would really fall that low to lie or fudge things.
Scripture does support purgatory its how it is interpreted, by Church fathers verus 1500 years later

Why would anyone go to purgatory? to be cleansed-purged of remaining sins and worldly attachments. “Nothing unclean shall enter heaven” Revelations 21:27.

Mat 5:48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. (The perfection comes through the cleansing, the purging of a soul stained with sin, of a soul still held by some chains of attachment to the world.) (necessity of cleansing of all sin being made perfect occurs upon death))

Heb 12:14 Strive to live in peace with everybody and pursue that consecration and holiness, ** without which no one** will [ever] see the Lord.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15, "if his work abides which he has built thereon he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved yet so as through fire." Heaven has no fire, and Hell is forever, only Purgatory could explain this passage?

Matthew 5:25-26, & 48, **"come to terms with thy opponent quickly while…
According the Haydock commentary on scripture:-**Ver. 25. & 26. Agree whilst you are in the way, or wayfaring men, i.e. in this life, lest you be cast into prison, i.e. according to Sts. Cyprian, Ambrose, and Origen, into purgatory; according to St. Augustine, into hell, in which, as the debt is to be paid to inflexible justice, it can never be acquitted, and of course no release can be hoped for from that prison. (Haydock)

lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off ( Mat5:25-26, & 48,}in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian,A Treatise on the Soul, 35(A.D. 210),in ANF,III:216

1 Corinthians 3:14-15, "if his work abides which he has built thereon he will receive reward; if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved yet so as through fire." Haydock commentary Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment from the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to a reward in heaven, (into which nothing defiled or unclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and is such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven.
 
So, the ECF’s are both in full agreement with the Bible, but also, the Bible is dead set against teaching purgatory, yet the ECF’s spoke of purgatory?

Rules for interpreting Scripture:

Rules for interpreting Scripture: Established by Pope Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus (1893) seconded and confirmed by Pope Benedict XV in Spiritus Paraclitus (1920) and by Pope Pius XII in Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943) Pope Pius XII declared in Divino… that Leo’s encyclical Providentisisimus for interpreting the bible to "the supreme guide in Biblical studies"
Four rules for interpreting the Bible for the Catholic Church

  1. Always pay attention to the Magisterium the authority of the Church
  2. Be guided by what the early fathers had to say about a particular passage.
  3. Always to be guided by what the **Bible has to say as a whole **(not key phrases here and there for defining ones theology and ignoring passages which do not fit one’s theology, see opening quote). One must take into account all of Scripture which pertains to a given doctrinal truth.
  4. Always take the Bible Literally unless it is reasonably unattenable
    I will maintain that a protestant who will follow the last three rules will well over 90% of the time arrive at the same truths as the Catholic Church!! The true church must be that church which follows the teachings of those immediate successors of the Apostles. These are the Apostolic fathers who learned the faith at the foot of the Apostles. The Catholic church teaches the same things as those taught by the Apostolic fathers. It has not veered to the left or ritght but teaches the same today. If a Church comes a long 1,500 years later and teaches something different how can they have the truth. They claim truth based on their own authority yet teach things that are in contradiction to the Apostolic fathers. While they maintain a portion of the same teachings as the Apostolic teachings professing Christ as redeemer and savior and hence have portion of the Catholic heritage never the less they only have a portion of the loaf of bread. For since the Catholic churche teaches the same as the Apostolic Fathers only they have the complete loaf of bread.
Most outside of the Catholic Church would ignore rule number one. But all Christians outside of the Catholic church ought to pay attentions to the last three rules particulary rule number “2” and “3”. Rule “2” states to always be guided by what the early church fathers had to say. Why? First we were not there to hear and see everything and can easily be fooled into reading something not there into Scripture or reading something out of Scripture. The First Fathers were trained by the Apostles and the preceding Fathers are closer to the time frame allowing for less corruption of the teachings to occur. We are 2,000 years removed from the original source. Second and Most Important is that Scripture is clear on this and is repeated often by Paul that we are to pay attention to both the Sacred Oral word as well as the Sacred Written word passed down.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 …Thank God constantly for this, that when you receivedthe word of God Which your heard from us,…

2 Thessalonians 2:15, “So then, brethren, stand firm, and hold teachings that you have learned whether by word (Sacred oral teaching) or by letter of ours.”

2 Thesalonians 3:6 6* Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us ( Sacred oral teachings)

Malachi 2:7; “The lips of the priest shall keep knowledge, and they shall seek the law at this mouth. (Sacred Oral teaching)”

2 Timothy 2::2, “and the things that thou hast heard from me through many witnesses, commend to trust-worthy men who shall be competent in turn to teach others.”

1 Corinthians 11:2, “Now I praise you, brethren, because in all things you are mindful of me and hold fast my precepts as I gave them to you.”

We are told that first Christian “were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles” (Acts 2, 42) which was the oral teaching that was given long before the New Testament was written.
1Cor 11:2 and hold fast my precepts (oral teaching)
2Tim 1: 13 Hold to the form of sound teaching which thous has heard from me.
Titus 1:3 manifested his word through the preaching committed to my trust by the Command of God
1Thes 2:13 …you heard and received from us the word of God

1Cor 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached (Oral teaching) unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Furthermore John tells us that everything has not been written down.

John 21:25, “There are, however, many other things that Jesus did; but if every one of these would be written not even the world itself, I think, could hold the books that would have to be written.” (Not everything concerning Christ is in the Scripture per John)

John 20:30 Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are **they that give testimony of me. **

1 Timothy 3:15, “The church is the pillar and foundation of truth.”
 
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