This letter was addressed to the bishop of Nola, Paulinus. As for laymen interpreting the scriptures, he writes in 53:7,You quoted Jerome! now it’s my turn, here is Jerome on the sufficiency of scripture… that is what we are talking about, RIGHT!
“I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else.” - Jerome (Letter 53:10)
It was precisely because Paulinus was a bishop that he needed to learn scripture in order to correctly guide his flock. St. Jerome was no proto-Lutheran.The art of interpreting the scriptures is the only one of which all men everywhere claim to be masters. To quote Horace again, “Taught or untaught we all write poetry.” The chatty old woman, the doting old man, and the wordy sophist, one and all take in hand the Scriptures, rend them in pieces and teach them before they have learned them.
Well I have no doubt that the church fathers contradicted one another on certain things, but that’s not what I was asking. So far, Martin seems to be suggesting that each particular church father constantly contradicted himself on particular teachings. When we demonstrate that a certain church father believed in Sacred Tradition, he counters with a quote from the same author that Martin thinks shows he believed in the sufficiency of Scripture. Compare this to when Martin produced quotes of Augustine’s that apparently showed Augustine did not believe in the Real Presence. Instead of producing other quotes of Augustine that show that he did indeed believe in the Real Presence (I think other people did this), I tried to show that the quotes that Martin produced could be interpreted to be consistent with Catholic theology. Did Martin respond to this argument of mine? No. He just produced some more quotes from more authors. In other words, he won’t interact with a specific argument.I don’t imagine all of them agreed 100% on everything just as we don’t today. One can have a tendency, no doubt, to read what they say in the light of one’s own beliefs.
4given I think that Martin’s mistake is to think that one particular church father will contradict himself in discussing topics such as the sufficiency of Scripture. I think that a much more sensible thing to do would be to try to discover what each particular church father thinks of the sufficiency of Scripture. So if Jerome says on the one hand that Scripture is sufficient, then on the other hand he says that Sacred Tradition is necessary, we need to try to discover what he meant by all this. There is an apparent contradiction, which means one of two things:Okay, so can Catholics explain the ECF quotes that don’t appear to support Cathoic doctrine? And seem to say that it’s Scripture we should go to? Such as some of the quotes above by Jerome?
I have seen quotes from Jerome showing his thoughts on the high level of placement he regards Scripture, but I have yet to see him say anything of the sufficiency of Scripture (when taken in context.)Okay, so can Catholics explain the ECF quotes that don’t appear to support Cathoic doctrine? And seem to say that it’s Scripture we should go to? Such as some of the quotes above by Jerome?
Titus 3:5Ok, I read these quotes. Again you have taken a few snippets, taken completely out of context to somehow try to fit your view. Kinda like what you are doing with the writtings of our ECF’s.
BTW: So you really think us Catholic’s believe we are saved by works? That we are not “saved” That we are spiritully dead?
From my POV they must explain it or they are being dishonest when they use them to support their doctrine, these guys simply are not (C)atholic they are catholic…Okay, so can Catholics explain the ECF quotes that don’t appear to support Cathoic doctrine? And seem to say that it’s Scripture we should go to? Such as some of the quotes above by Jerome?
Nope, Not interested to do that. They are your quotes. Plus it is not who I am. Why don’t you answer my question. That is what I gleened from your request for me to read those snippets.Titus 3:5
Eph 2:8-9
galatian 2:21
My challenge to you is start a thread explaining these three verses and how I am taking them out of context.
We just did this passage of Clement as a thread:Doesn’t seem to be pointing to anything cept… scripture.
Clement of Alexandria
“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.” - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:16)
Thanks! for the link that was before I came back.We just did this passage of Clement as a thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=118286
What do ya think that which I’ve enlarged is about???Let’s see if Jerome really thought that Scripture is sufficient:
Don’t you know that the laying on of hands after baptism and then the invocation of the Holy Sirit is a custom of the Churches? Do you demand Scripture proof? You may find it in the Acts of the Apostles. And even if it did not rest on the authority of Scripture the consensus of the whole world in this respect would have the force of a command. For many other observances of the Churches, which are do to tradition, have acquired the authority of the written law (The Dialogue Against the Luciferians 8 A.D. 382]).
Jerome is saying that tradition has the same authority as Scripture, voila!What do ya think that which I’ve enlarged is about???
Are you talking about the traditions you quoted in your post above, or something else? Because we certainly do follow them. The “laying on of hands after baptism” is Confirmation. And do I even need to say that invocation of the Holy Spirit is followed by the CC? I’m not really sure exactly what Jerome is talking about here, as I’m not sure what error he is refuting.Ironically, have you seen the list of traditions Jerome talks of in these writings? Let me share this with you…Your Church follows none of them…
Ok I just went and read the whole passage in question. It seems to me that Jerome is saying that Church practice - that is discipline - has equal weight in authority to the Scriptures! And you’re trying to tell me that Jerome thought that the Scriptures are sufficient?! Clearly, he thought nothing of the sort.Ironically, have you seen the list of traditions Jerome talks of in these writings? Let me share this with you…Your Church follows none of them…
Without a greater context for each tradition, it is actually quite hard to say whether or not our Church follows them. Several of them I would hazard a guess that we do actually follow them. However, most of these things seem to be in the realm of discipline and not doctrine. Therefore it matters little whether or not our Church still follows them.Here are some traditions specifically listed by Tertullian and Jerome on some specific traditions… How does your church measure up?
before they are baptized: “solemnly profess that we disown the devil, and his pomp, and his angels” (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4)
immerse three times “thrice immersed”" (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4)
“dipping the head three times in the layer” (Jerome, Dialogue Against the Luciferians, 8)
After baptism: drink “(as new-born children) a mixture of milk and honey” (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4)
“tasting milk and honey in representation of infancy” (Jerome, Dialogue Against the Luciferians, 8)
After baptism: “from that day we refrain from the daily bath for a whole week” (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4)
“as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours” (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4)
“ceasing from fasting every Pentecost”. (Jerome, Dialogue Against the Luciferians, 8)
“fasting … in worship on the Lord’s day to be unlawful” (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4)
“the practices of standing up in worship on the Lord’s day” (Jerome, Dialogue Against the Luciferians, 8)
“kneeling in worship on the Lord’s day to be unlawful” (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4)
“We feel pained should any wine or bread, even though our own, be cast upon the ground” (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4)
“At every forward step and movement, at every going in and out, when we put on our clothes and shoes, when we bathe, when we sit at table, when we light the lamps, on couch, on seat, in all the ordinary actions of daily life, we trace upon the forehead the sign.” (of the cross) (Tertullian, The crown or De Corona, ch 3-4)
For the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches teach the doctrine of “oral tradition” yet not keep the specific oral traditions listed by Tertullian and Jerome, is all the proof anyone needs to conclude they are a tradition unto themselves, regardless of what the Bible says or the Church Fathers.
Reconcile? is that what you call taking snippets completely out of context…time and time again? in order to make a case.No other Church has studied the Scriptures as much as the Catholic Church as a whole, and no other Church even bothers to try to reconcile the writings of the early church fathers with their doctrines of today.
A very tough assertion to back up. Sometime look at Calvin’s Institutes’ indices and note how many Church Fathers he quotes. Even under Sola Scriptura, the ECFs can be read to determine what was thought about different passages of Scripture. We look at the ECFs and I’m thinking so do a lot of other Protestants, as well as the Orthodox.no other Church even bothers to try to reconcile the writings of the early church fathers with their doctrines of today.