ECF's did they follow current doctrine?

[Atreyu]

The motivation is this I was falling into the “catholic doctrines/ways of men” based on seeing some ECF writings given by you guys then I started reading more into it, it made me say whaaat… There isn’t alot of truth when people use ECF’s to sell there point of Roman Catholocism as they repeatedly contradict it’s doctrine.

Like HailMary said, not every father is exactly in-line with every single Catholic doctrine that has ever been taught. However, what is very important in reading the ECF’s is to notice that all of the Catholic doctrine of today is there, right from the start. It may be in a less-developed way than it is today, but it is there - in some form - nonetheless. It would be impossible to reconcile every single statement of the ECF’s even as it is impossible to reconcile every single statement made by today’s Christians. But the ECF’s are not infallible; they are just witnesses.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Mary and saints part 2

Ephraim the Syrian

“You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him” (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

“Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day” (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).

The Liturgy of St. Basil

“By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name” (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Pectorius

“Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]” (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).

Gregory of Nazianz

“May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand” (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).

Gregory of Nyssa
“[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom” (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

John Chrysostom

“He that wears the purple * . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead” (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

“When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]” (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).

Ambrose of Milan

“May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance” (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

Jerome

“You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine

“A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers” (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

“There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended” (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

“At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps” (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

“Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ” (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).*

C’mon, one at a time…I can do this too but who’ll read?

 

[HailMary]

C’mon, one at a time…I can do this too but who’ll read?

lol did you not request this?

 

[Mannyfit75]

C’mon, one at a time…I can do this too but who’ll read?

You asked of the ECF follow current doctrine, so the Catholics here responded.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

You asked of the ECF follow current doctrine, so the Catholics here responded.

Very good Mannyfit75; Here are some writings regarding the sufficiency of scripture…
Are ya ready?
Ambrose
“For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?” - Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
“The Arians, then, say that Christ is unlike the Father; we deny it. Nay, indeed, we shrink in dread from the word. Nevertheless I would not that your sacred Majesty should trust to argument and our disputation. Let us enquire of the Scriptures, of apostles, of prophets, of Christ. In a word, let us enquire of the Father…So, indeed, following the guidance of the Scriptures, our fathers [at the Council of Nicaea] declared, holding, moreover, that impious doctrines should be included in the record of their decrees, in order that the unbelief of Arius should discover itself, and not, as it were, mask itself with dye or face-paint.” - Ambrose (Exposition of the Christian Faith, 1:6:43, 1:18:119)
Augustine
“In order to leave room for such profitable discussions of difficult questions, there is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books has come down to us from the apostles through the successions of bishops and the extension of the Church, and, from a position of lofty supremacy, claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind…In the innumerable books that have been written latterly we may sometimes find the same truth as in Scripture, but there is not the same authority. Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself.” - Augustine (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 11:5)
“Every sickness of the soul hath in Scripture its proper remedy.” - Augustine (Expositions on the Psalms, 37:2)
Clement of Alexandria
“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.” - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:16)
Cyprian
“Let nothing be innovated, says he, nothing maintained, except what has been handed down. Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that those things which are written must be done, God witnesses and admonishes, saying to Joshua the son of Nun: ‘The book of this law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate in it day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein.’ Also the Lord, sending His apostles, commands that the nations should be baptized, and taught to observe all things which He commanded. If, therefore, it is either prescribed in the Gospel, or contained in the epistles or Acts of the Apostles, that those who come from any heresy should not be baptized, but only hands laid upon them to repentance, let this divine and holy tradition be observed.” - Cyprian (Letter 73:2)
Cyril of Jerusalem
“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)
Jerome
“When, then, anything in my little work seems to you harsh, have regard not to my words, but to the Scripture, whence they are taken.” - Jerome (Letter 48:20)
“I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else.” - Jerome (Letter 53:10)
“When Paula comes to be a little older and to increase like her Spouse in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and man, let her go with her parents to the temple of her true Father but let her not come out of the temple with them. Let them seek her upon the world’s highway amid the crowds and the throng of their kinsfolk, and let them find her nowhere but in the shrine of the scriptures” - Jerome (Letter 107:7)

That should get the wheels spinning.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Mary’s sinlessness;
Origen
“While if by those ‘who were without sin’ he means such as have never at any time sinned,-for he made no distinction in his statement,-we reply that it is impossible for a man thus to be without sin. And this we say, excepting, of course, the man understood to be in Christ Jesus, who ‘did no sin.’…God has not been able to prevent even in the case of a single individual, so that one man might be found from the very beginning of things who was born into the world untainted by sin…For in the connected series of statements which appears to apply as to one particular individual, the curse pronounced upon Adam is regarded as common to all (the members of the race), and what was spoken with reference to the woman is spoken of every woman without exception.” - Origen (Against Celsus, 3:62, 4:40)

Kelly helps clarify…
“Origen insisted that, like all human beings, she [Mary] needed redemption from her sins; in particular, he interpreted Simeon’s prophecy (Luke 2, 35) that a sword would pierce her soul as confirming that she had been invaded with doubts when she saw her Son crucified.” (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 493)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

John Chrysostom
Compare the following John Chrysostom writings to the claims of Pope Pius IX
:
“even to have borne Christ in the womb, and to have brought forth that marvellous birth, hath no profit, if there be not virtue. And this is hence especially manifest. ‘For while He yet talked to the people,’ it is said, ‘one told Him, Thy mother and Thy brethren seek Thee. Butt He saith, who is my mother, and who are my brethren?’ [Matthew 12:46-48] And this He said, not as being ashamed of His mother, nor denying her that bare Him; for if He had been ashamed of her, He would not have passed through that womb; but as declaring that she hath no advantage from this, unless she do all that is required to be done. For in fact that which she had essayed to do, was of superfluous vanity; in that she wanted to show the people that she hath power and authority over her Son, imagining not as yet anything great concerning Him; whence also her unseasonable approach. See at all events both her self-confidence and theirs. Since when they ought to have gone in, and listened with the multitude; or if they were not so minded, to have waited for His bringing His discourse to an end, and then to have come near; they call Him out, and do this before all, evincing a superfluous vanity, and wishing to make it appear, that with much authority they enjoin Him. And this too the evangelist shows that he is blaming, for with this very allusion did he thus express himself, ‘While He yet talked to the people;’ as if he should say, What? was there no other opportunity? Why, was it not possible to speak with Him in private?” - John Chrysostom (Homilies on the Gospel According to St. Matthew, 44)

“For where parents cause no impediment or hindrance in things belonging to God, it is our bounden duty to give way to them, and there is great danger in not doing so; but when they require anything unseasonably, and cause hindrance in any spiritual matter, it is unsafe to obey. And therefore He answered thus in this place, and again elsewhere, ‘Who is My mother, and who are My brethren?’ (Matt. xii. 48), because they did not yet think rightly of Him; and she, because she had borne Him, claimed, according to the custom of other mothers, to direct Him in all things, when she ought to have reverenced and worshiped Him. This then was the reason why He answered as He did on that occassion…And so this was a reason why He rebuked her on that occasion, saying, ‘Woman, what have I to do with thee?’ [John 2:4] instructing her for the future not to do the like; because, though He was careful to honor His mother, yet He cared much for the salvation of her soul” - John Chrysostom (Homilies on the Gospel According to St. John, 21)

“The Catholic Church, directed by the Holy Spirit of God, is the pillar and base of truth and has ever held as divinely revealed and as contained in the deposit of heavenly revelation this doctrine concerning the original innocence of the august Virgin – a doctrine which is so perfectly in harmony with her wonderful sanctity and preeminent dignity as Mother of God – and thus has never ceased to explain, to teach and to foster this doctrine age after age in many ways and by solemn acts… Indeed, considering the times and circumstances, the Fathers of Trent sufficiently intimated by this declaration that the Blessed Virgin Mary was free from the original stain; and thus they clearly signified that nothing could be reasonably cited from the Sacred Scriptures, from Tradition, or from the authority of the Fathers, which would in any way be opposed to so great a prerogative of the Blessed Virgin…And indeed, illustrious documents of venerable antiquity, of both the Eastern and the Western Church, very forcibly testify that this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the most Blessed Virgin, which was daily more and more splendidly explained, stated and confirmed by the highest authority, teaching, zeal, knowledge, and wisdom of the Church, and which was disseminated among all peoples and nations of the Catholic world in a marvelous manner – this doctrine always existed in the Church as a doctrine that has been received from our ancestors, and that has been stamped with the character of revealed doctrine…this doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mother of God, which, as the Fathers discerned, was recorded in the Divine Scriptures” - Pope Pius IX (Ineffabilis Deus)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

lol did you not request this?

I don’t care for people laughing at me.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

More on Mary’s sinlessness…

**Clement of Alexandria **

Clement of Alexandria doesn’t seem to have viewed Mary as sinless. He refers to Christ as the only sinless person:
“Now, O you, my children, our Instructor is like His Father God, whose son He is, sinless, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion; God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand, and with the form of God is God. He is to us a spotless image; to Him we are to try with all our might to assimilate our souls. He is wholly free from human passions; wherefore also He alone is judge, because He alone is sinless. As far, however, as we can, let us try to sin as little as possible. For nothing is so urgent in the first place as deliverance from passions and disorders, and then the checking of our liability to fall into sins that have become habitual. It is best, therefore, not to sin at all in any way, which we assert to be the prerogative of God alone…But He welcomes the repentance of the sinner-loving repentance-which follows sins. For this Word of whom we speak alone is sinless. For to sin is natural and common to all.” (The Instructor, 1:2, 3:12)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Ambrose
Ambrose believed that original sin was communicated by means of sexual intercourse. Thus, Jesus avoided original sin by being born of a virgin. Mary, however, would have original sin:“He was man in the flesh, according to His human nature, that He might be recognized, but in power was above man, that He might not be recognized, so He has our flesh, but has not the failings of this flesh. For He was not begotten, as is every man, by intercourse between male and female, but born of the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin; He received a stainless body, which not only no sins polluted, but which neither the generation nor the conception had been stained by any admixture of defilement. For we men are all born under sin, and our very origin is in evil, as we read in the words of David: ‘For lo, I was conceived in wickedness, and in sin did my mother bring me forth.’” (On Repentance, 1:3:12-13)

And if any Catholic wants to argue that Ambrose’s phrases “every man” and “all” are referring to all people except Mary, Ambrose tells us elsewhere that being immaculately conceived is unique to Christ:

“For the Lord Jesus alone of those who are born of woman is holy, inasmuch as He experienced not the contact of earthly corruption, by reason of the novelty of His immaculate birth; nay, He repelled it by His heavenly majesty.” (cited in Augustine, On the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin, 2:47)

 

[E.E.N.S]

Very good Mannyfit75; Here are some writings regarding the sufficiency of scripture…
Are ya ready?
Ambrose
“For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?” - Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)
“The Arians, then, say that Christ is unlike the Father; we deny it. Nay, indeed, we shrink in dread from the word. Nevertheless I would not that your sacred Majesty should trust to argument and our disputation. Let us enquire of the Scriptures, of apostles, of prophets, of Christ. In a word, let us enquire of the Father…So, indeed, following the guidance of the Scriptures, our fathers [at the Council of Nicaea] declared, holding, moreover, that impious doctrines should be included in the record of their decrees, in order that the unbelief of Arius should discover itself, and not, as it were, mask itself with dye or face-paint.” - Ambrose (Exposition of the Christian Faith, 1:6:43, 1:18:119)
Augustine
“In order to leave room for such profitable discussions of difficult questions, there is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books has come down to us from the apostles through the successions of bishops and the extension of the Church, and, from a position of lofty supremacy, claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind…In the innumerable books that have been written latterly we may sometimes find the same truth as in Scripture, but there is not the same authority. Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself.” - Augustine (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 11:5)
“Every sickness of the soul hath in Scripture its proper remedy.” - Augustine (Expositions on the Psalms, 37:2)
Clement of Alexandria
“But those who are ready to toil in the most excellent pursuits, will not desist from the search after truth, till they get the demonstration from the Scriptures themselves.” - Clement of Alexandria (The Stromata, 7:16)
Cyprian
“Let nothing be innovated, says he, nothing maintained, except what has been handed down. Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that those things which are written must be done, God witnesses and admonishes, saying to Joshua the son of Nun: ‘The book of this law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate in it day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein.’ Also the Lord, sending His apostles, commands that the nations should be baptized, and taught to observe all things which He commanded. If, therefore, it is either prescribed in the Gospel, or contained in the epistles or Acts of the Apostles, that those who come from any heresy should not be baptized, but only hands laid upon them to repentance, let this divine and holy tradition be observed.” - Cyprian (Letter 73:2)
Cyril of Jerusalem
“For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell thee these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” - Cyril of Jerusalem (Catechetical Lectures, 4:17)
Jerome
“When, then, anything in my little work seems to you harsh, have regard not to my words, but to the Scripture, whence they are taken.” - Jerome (Letter 48:20)
“I beg of you, my dear brother, to live among these books [scripture], to meditate upon them, to know nothing else, to seek nothing else.” - Jerome (Letter 53:10)
“When Paula comes to be a little older and to increase like her Spouse in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and man, let her go with her parents to the temple of her true Father but let her not come out of the temple with them. Let them seek her upon the world’s highway amid the crowds and the throng of their kinsfolk, and let them find her nowhere but in the shrine of the scriptures” - Jerome (Letter 107:7)

That should get the wheels spinning.

Which one of these quotes proves your point?? I am only reading some things showing that Scripture is profitable and Sacred. Infact some of these quotes point to Tradition outside of the Scriptures as being authoritative. Wasn’t it St. Augustine who said that “if it weren’t for the authority of the Church [he] would not believe the Scriptures…”?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Very good Mannyfit75; Here are some writings regarding the sufficiency of scripture…
Are ya ready?
Ambrose
“For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?” - Ambrose (On the Duties of the Clergy, 1:23:102)

Okay, let’s put this sentence back into its context and see if it is talking about the sufficiency of Scripture or if it is referring to something alltogether different.

CHAPTER XXIII. Jests, although at times they may be quite proper, should be altogether banished among clerics. The voice should be plain and frank.
102. MEN of the world give many further rules about the way to speak, which I think we may pass over; as, for instance, the way jesting should be conducted. For though at times jests may be proper and pleasant, yet they are unsuited to the clerical life. For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures?
103. We must also take care that in relating stories we do not alter the earnest purpose of the harder rule we have set before us “Woe unto you that laugh, for ye shall weep,” says the Lord. Do we seek for something to laugh at, that laughing here we may weep hereafter? I think we ought to avoid not only broad jokes, but all kinds of jests, unless perchance it is not unfitting at the time for our conversation to be agreeable and pleasant. 104. In speaking of the voice, I certainly think it ought to be plain and clear. That it should be musical is a gift of nature, and is not to be won by exertion. Let it be distinct in its pronunciation and full of a manly vigour, but let it be free from a rough and rustic twang. See, too, that it does not assume a theatrical accent, but rather keeps true to the inner meaning of the words it utters.

I don’t know, it seems like he wasn’t talking about the sufficiency of Scripture at all.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Before I address your other posts I’d like to ask you a question: what’s your point in all of this? These men are not infallible. In fact many of the doctrines that you are pointing out (e.g., the Immaculate Conception) were not even defined for quite some time after the people you are quoting lived. Do you expect ALL priests and bishops to be 100% correct 100% of the time in EACH and EVERY thing they say or write? Even the popes do not have this charism.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Infact some of these quotes point to Tradition outside of the Scriptures as being authoritative.

Such as?

Wasn’t it St. Augustine who said that “if it weren’t for the authority of the Church [he] would not believe the Scriptures…”?

Why don’t you do your homework and share this with everyone, instead of us taking your word for it.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Okay, let’s put this sentence back into its context and see if it is talking about the sufficiency of Scripture or if it is referring to something alltogether different.

CHAPTER XXIII. Jests, although at times they may be quite proper, should be altogether banished among clerics. The voice should be plain and frank.
102. MEN of the world give many further rules about the way to speak, which I think we may pass over; as, for instance, the way jesting should be conducted. For though at times jests may be proper and pleasant, yet they are unsuited to the clerical life.** For how can we adopt those things which we do not find in the holy Scriptures? **103. We must also take care that in relating stories we do not alter the earnest purpose of the harder rule we have set before us “Woe unto you that laugh, for ye shall weep,” says the Lord. Do we seek for something to laugh at, that laughing here we may weep hereafter? I think we ought to avoid not only broad jokes, but all kinds of jests, unless perchance it is not unfitting at the time for our conversation to be agreeable and pleasant. 104. In speaking of the voice, I certainly think it ought to be plain and clear. That it should be musical is a gift of nature, and is not to be won by exertion. Let it be distinct in its pronunciation and full of a manly vigour, but let it be free from a rough and rustic twang. See, too, that it does not assume a theatrical accent, but rather keeps true to the inner meaning of the words it utters.

I don’t know, it seems like he wasn’t talking about the sufficiency of Scripture at all.

Of course he isn’t talking about sufficiency, he is stating that if it isn’t in scripture…aahhmmm, how can we adopt it… didn’t think you needed to read about joking and jesting.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Before I address your other posts I’d like to ask you a question: what’s your point in all of this? These men are not infallible. In fact many of the doctrines that you are pointing out (e.g., the Immaculate Conception) were not even defined for quite some time after the people you are quoting lived. Do you expect ALL priests and bishops to be 100% correct 100% of the time in EACH and EVERY thing they say or write? Even the popes do not have this charism.

Here is the point, If you guys are going to use snippets to make your point in arguments be honest about it, last time I left here I started believing alot of what was being touted regarding the ECF’s then I started studying and looking into it, so the point must be made if you choose to use their writings be prepared because there is alot more to these writings then you’ll believe.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Such as?

Let’s take one from Augustine that you posted to prove the sufficiency of Scripture.

***Augustine
**“In order to leave room for such profitable discussions of difficult questions, there is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books has come down to us from the apostles through the successions of bishops and the extension of the Church, and, from a position of lofty supremacy, claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind…In the innumerable books that have been written latterly we may sometimes find the same truth as in Scripture, but there is not the same authority. Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself.” - Augustine (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 11:5)
*
What authority is it that determined this canon? Certainly it is not Scripture.

Why don’t you do your homework and share this with everyone, instead of us taking your word for it.

If you insist.

*“Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should … With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me… No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion… For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.” *— St. Augustine (354–430): Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental, chapter 4: Proofs of the Catholic Faith

 

[E.E.N.S]

Here is the point, If you guys are going to use snippets to make your point in arguments be honest about it, last time I left here I started believing alot of what was being touted regarding the ECF’s then I started studying and looking into it, so the point must be made if you choose to use their writings be prepared because there is alot more to these writings then you’ll believe.

You are right, we should never use snippets out of context. You nor I. However, I ask your point because if you read the ECF in their entirety you will see beyond a shadow of doubt their Catholicity.

For referrence, I have many of their writings at home, the most volumnous being a 38 volume set.

Snippets are one thing, but taking them out of context to say they mean something they infact do not is another.

 

[Penitus]

myfavoritmartin,

Whenever you read the Church Fathers, be sure to ask yourself a few questions:

1. Am I reading this sentence out of context? As with the Bible, it is best to read at LEAST 6 sentences or verses before and after to see what it is exactly that the author is trying to say.
2. Who is this author writing to, and what is the purpose of the writing?

No Church Father believed in Sola Scriptura. There was no definitive canon until 382 A.D.

With that being said, if you’re that confident that you can refute anything Catholics throw at you, you should have no problem looking at Catholic websites instead of downplaying them.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Let’s take one from Augustine that you posted to prove the sufficiency of Scripture.

***Augustine
***“In order to leave room for such profitable discussions of difficult questions, there is a distinct boundary line separating all productions subsequent to apostolic times from the authoritative canonical books of the Old and New Testaments. The authority of these books has come down to us from the apostles through the successions of bishops and the extension of the Church, and, from a position of lofty supremacy, claims the submission of every faithful and pious mind…In the innumerable books that have been written latterly we may sometimes find the same truth as in Scripture, but there is not the same authority. Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself.” - Augustine (Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, 11:5)

What’s this telling you…
Scripture has a sacredness peculiar to itself