ECF's for Bible Christians?

[JonNC]

=Radical;9920741]
Aramaic doesn’t have an “is” so technically, it likely wouldn’t be Christ’s own words…it would be scripturally and, of course, scripture also has Jesus saying that anyone who does the will of his Father IS His real mother, brother and sister. That “IS” is merely spiritual and is very real.

Spiritual is quite real, but the body is blood of the Lord’s Supper is more than spiritual.

you miss the point…for Bob dreams are the reality…you seem to be equivocating across philosophies and speak as if “real presence” means the same thing for a Platonist as it means for you. IMHO it is like saying that since a Jew believes in one God and since a Muslim believes in one God and since a Christian believes in one God, then all three must believe in the same God.

I guss a Platonist might need to respond regarding whether or not it means the same as what I as a Lutheran believe. What I am saying is, if you look back at the link I provided, Lutheran and Catholic theologians (of that document) say the difference should no longer be Church dividing.

it seems that you want to insist that those words are a mystery (beyond our understanding), but then go on to insist that they must be understood in a certain way

what is the mystery is the How. How is it that, by the poer of the Holy Spirit, mere bread and wine are the body and blood of Christ, which we receive not just spiritually by faith, but also orally by the mouth.
.

I have a hard time believing that the Orthodox theologians will ever come round to endorsing the Aristotelian metaphysics of the Catholic claims…especially since it is a rather out-dated metaphysical view (and only getting moreso)…which is yet another reason to doubt that the union between Catholic and Orthodox will ever be real and substantial…though it is nice that they have found some merely spiritual common ground

Again, the Orthodox will need to chime in on this.

Jon

 

[Radical]

Spiritual is quite real, but the body is blood of the Lord’s Supper is more than spiritual.

well that’s the thing, it isn’t at all clear that for the Platonist ECF there was anything more real than the spiritual

I guss a Platonist might need to respond regarding whether or not it means the same as what I as a Lutheran believe.

those Platonists are rather hard to find…we might need a couple of shovels to dig one up

What I am saying is, if you look back at the link I provided, Lutheran and Catholic theologians (of that document) say the difference should no longer be Church dividing.

err…shouldn’t that be denomination separating?

what is the mystery is the How.

so you say…but then add that the HOW can’t be spiritually…so I guess it isn’t a complete mystery

 

[Radical]

Radical,

How many times is it mentioned in that passage that we must feast on the Bread from Heaven?

IIRC twice…but that you don’t take literally b/c, according to your Church the bread ceases to be present

The passage repeats many time flesh and blood… How is this spiritual? symbolic?

Jesus claims that he is bread…do you take that spiritually? Jesus said that whoever ate would never be hungry again…is that true?..and if so, is it a spiritual or physical hunger that was contemplated? There is so much about that passage that you interpret non-literally and you wonder how a mere one more thing could be understood non-literally?

Many times Jesus mentions drink the living water,…

yeah, what about that…where is the sacrament for that claim? Why treat that claim differently?

I think I will be like the apostles, and stay and accept this hard teaching.

that is what you think alright….but I can’t believe that your thinking is correct

Eucharistic miracles: I think the thread you quoted does a good job at answering you. If you wish to open a new thread we can discuss it further,…

I believe that I have said what I had to say, but if you have questions please fire away on a new thread…it sure would be nice if the Catholics got the DNA testing done, so much to gain vs. so much to lose.

….but let’s focus on the ECF’s beliefs on Real Presence, and the conclusion is yes the ECFs did believe in Real Presence.

yep, and Jews, Muslims and Christians all claim to believe in one God…tis amazing how much diversity can exist w/i the same claim.

 

[Patavium]

yeah, what about that…where is the sacrament for that claim? Why treat that claim differently?

We don’t treat it differently. We drink His blood.

 

[JonNC]

=Radical;9924886]
err…shouldn’t that be denomination separating?

No. I meant Church dividing.

Jon

 

[Radical]

We don’t treat it differently. We drink His blood.

huh? we were talking about living water…which Christ said will spring up inside of believers…so how is drinking wine equated with drinking living water?

 

[Radical]

No. I meant Church dividing.

Jon

Jon, I believed that I have asked you this before, but please let me ask again (to see if you now have an answer). We have been discussing the Platonism of the ECFs…as Platonists they would have understood that there was a realm of things that are sensed (what we would view as the material or physical world). Everyone agrees (I think) that no change occurs in that realm…Whatever change was envisioned by the ECFs would have been understood to have occurred in a different Platonist realm (could be called the realm of forms or ideas). Now I doubt that you are a Platonist (and I doubt that modern Catholics are Platonists)…so, my question for you and for any good Catholic out there is:

What is the realm (of existence) that sees a change from bread to host upon consecration?

It seems that you (and Catholics here) want to say that the change isn’t in the mere spiritual realm, isn’t merely symbolic, (would that be the mental realm?) and doesn’t occur in the physical realm…so what other realms are there where this alleged change could occur?

 

[zz912]

let’s focus on the ECF’s beliefs on Real Presence, and the conclusion is yes the ECFs did believe in Real Presence.

Christ bore Himself in His hands, when He offered His body saying: “this is my body.” - St. Augustine

 

[Patavium]

I refuse to believe in the Protestantism. Many years of following and teaching what the apostles believed, and then oh no! they were wrong. It is symbolic!. I hold on to the truth as it was passed down from Jesus to this date.