Eckhart Tolle?

[Jefree]

I agree with Prodigalson. He is very knowledgable.

If you read something that makes you think it is true, then you are not thinking properly. the Truth is the Bible. Without the Bible there would not be eckart Fooles books.

Eckart Foole may very be sent here to test our faith as a servant of the unholy master.

Come to think on it, you are sounding very unholy yourself buddhist monk 2 posts up.

Don’t be fooled by the trickery and lies. God is real, Eckart Foole is not. If you believe him you WILL go to hell.

May God bless this house. Amen.

 

[One]

Wow.

What hate. What weakness we demonstrate.

I would like to remind you that I never suggested whether or not I have read Tolle, whether or not I would be likely to agree with his works, nor where I land on this issue in any way, shape, or form.

All I suggested is that we learn to think for ourselves. And that causes people like Jefree to go around calling people “Foole” and {gasp!} Bhuddist monk, and suggesting that anyone who believes him WILL go to hell? Unreal.

Have fun reading your one book. If one is so weak in their mind that they cannot tolerate even glancing at another idea, it’s a sad world indeed. THAT, is hell.

Just curious, Jefree: Do you read any other books?

Prodigalson – at least your reply was straightforward and not dripping with unsubstantiated fear. It’s actually quite a reasonable response for the perspective you take. But I’m curious: Before you read a book, how do you separate out the “garbage” from the “good?”

~

 

[Daedelus76]

I have read both Tolle major books. I think you’ll have a hard time dispproving what he teaches. Certain things, like his interepretation of Jesus Christ and some of the biblical quotes of his, are open to alot of debate. However, the basic idea he has, that there is suffering in the world, and it mostly caused by the ego, and it cannot be projected onto others to escape from it, is very true and as far as I’m concerned, proven. The particular way he deals with it is through mystical negationism, the Zen or Taoist experience of nonduality. There are other spiritual ways of course to deal with the ego, but he favors and teaches something like little koans, sayings, or moments of silence to try and “wake up”.

It’s also noteworthy that he hasn’t set up a very heavy structure as a business, and hasn’t opened an ashram or anything like that. Also, having watched enough of his behavior, there is nothing really “fake” about him at all. He’s not into devotees or being a guru.

If you have never experienced what Tolle is talking about, of course it will be over your head and frightening. Unlike the Christian story of eternal life, Tolle presents none of that as being a real spiritual solution. He doesn’t teach reincarnation or anything like that. Ultimately what happens after death is, for him, irrelevent. From what I have seen, though, in his talks, Tolle does consider the Christian “born again” experience real and significant, but he doesn’t ultimately think it is unique, and he sees a real danger from religious exclusivism. You are trading one self for a bigger self, but there is still a self. He wants to get rid of the self altogether, more like a Buddhist than a Hindu.

“Stillness is the only thing is this world, that has no form. But in reality, it is not a thing, and it is not of this world”. - Eckhart Tolle

 

[edwest2]

Mr. Tolle was instrumental in getting Oprah to abandon her Baptist beliefs and to declare that Jesus is not the only way.

youtube.com/watch?v=1XoCU7dcur0

Peace,
Ed

 

[Daedelus76]

I think Oprah decided to abandon her Baptist beliefs long before Tolle. She said once she heard a sermon about God being a “jealous” God, and it struck her as being wrong; she doesn’t like the view of God presented in the Bible. Richard Abanes doesn’t realize that Tolle is not talking about metaphysical reality, he is using words to point towards a mystical experience. To somebody stuck in a rationalistic and authoritarian mindset, who believes that absolute truth (you know, things like God) can be put into words, of course this would be deeply threatening.

Tolle has some much more legitimate critics within the wider “new age”/esoteric/transpersonal movement. Not severe criticism like the Christian critics, but cautious critiques:

"Daniel Pinchbeck, of Reality Sandwich, suggests that followers of Eckhart Tolle run the risk of interpreting the process in such a way as to “ignore social and political struggle. . . repackaged Vedanta will bring little change [for the New Earth] in social practices. . . that escape into “presence” enables capitalistic dysfunction, vs. reinventing society.”

There are some people who take a view that is more like Fr. Pierre Teillhard de Chardin, they view the ego no so much as inherently bad, but the ego has certain bad aspects that need to be worked out, the universe is evolving towards a super-consciousness and super-personality. A “communion” rather than an absolute union. Andrew Cohen, a controversial guru/spiritual teacher, has a similar idea.

Trungpa R(name removed by moderator)oche, an (in)famous Tibetan lama, talked about “spiritual materialism”, the belief that meditation or mystical awareness is an end in itself. Being a Mahayana Buddhist, he focused on the outward bodhisattva activity as the ultimate spiritual goal, not on particular mystical states. Kevin Malone, molested by a Catholic priests as a child, now a Zen priest, has also talked about “spiritual materialism” as a kind of spiritual colonialism and theft as a result of Western spiritual poverty. Rather than being a real fix, it becomes just another commodity - the exploitationist rot in the Western mindset is still there, unhealed. In fairness, I think Tolle doesn’t pretend to have a complete “system”, but rather is trying to get people interested in spirituality in general, but there is still the decontextualization of a powerful practice and packaging it in a commoditized form.

Also, what Tolle is teaching is basicly “sudden enlightenment”. Again, this is something that Andrew Cohen and others, including Ken Wilber, have pointed out as being a weakness. Even in Buddhism, there were some critics of the notion of “sudden enlightenment”. Ken Wilber points to Jungian “Shadow” or Anima/Animus elements that can exist, unacknowledged, even in so-called “enlightened” individuals (often times, the “Anima” is feminine in males, and masculine “Animus” in females- it’s the sense of the “Other” that is objectified). It’s possible of course that Tolle has largely integrated his Shadow elements, and this isn’t a factor for him… but it might be a factor for somebody else.

 

[One]

I think Oprah decided to abandon her Baptist beliefs long before Tolle.

Daedelus76…

Thank you very much for bringing some balance and sanity into this conversation (and in turn, I apologize for being so disappointed about witnessing – and railing against – the fear that is so clearly demonstrated here.)

I think your assessment of Tolle’s work is both accurate and fairly balanced.

In Buddhism, there is an expression of, “If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him.” In at least one sense, this suggests that we should never rely on the words of any one teacher, no matter how elevated they may seem, but should find the truth for ourselves. (“Be still and know” is another example, although that, too, is subject to various interpretations and misinterpretations.) To become overly or intimately engaged with any one teacher is to merely regard fingers pointing at the moon, and does not constitute Truth.

… who believes that absolute truth (you know, things like God) can be put into words…

And why was Jesus silent when asked, “What is truth?” Hmmm…

"Daniel Pinchbeck, of Reality Sandwich, suggests that followers of Eckhart Tolle run the risk of interpreting the process in such a way as to “ignore social and political struggle. . . repackaged Vedanta will bring little change [for the New Earth] in social practices. . . that escape into “presence” enables capitalistic dysfunction, vs. reinventing society.”

I completely agree with Pinchbeck’s assessment, but it should be noted that this is not the fault of Tolle, necessarily, but the fault of possible misinterpretations by those who read his work. (It certainly wouldn’t be the first time that someone misinterpreted the original message. )

We live in a time where people are hungry for a spirituality that takes them beyond traditional, myth-based, fear-based dogmatic beliefs that are difficult to reconcile, particularly when so many of those who claim to have the keys to the kingdom transgress entire cultures, weak individuals, and even helpless children. Is it any surprise that people clutch at straws that represent a way out of that madness? Combine that thirst for truth with a culturally-induced short attention span, and you will likely get the dysfunction that Pinchbeck suggests is possible. The ego is not transcended; it is celebrated and elevated, and that will never produce “A New Earth.”

In fairness, I think Tolle doesn’t pretend to have a complete “system”, but rather is trying to get people interested in spirituality in general, but there is still the decontextualization of a powerful practice and packaging it in a commoditized form.

Agreed! But someone has to do it…

As I recall, after his first book, Tolle disappeared and refused to do any speaking engagements or teaching. He quite reluctantly came back into the public eye. I think he would’ve been perfectly content to sit on a park bench and appreciate what was arising around him. But, taking the role of the Bhodissatva, perhaps, he came back to share what he knows.

There is a lot that Tolle doesn’t cover, and he doesn’t use tools or exercises, really, to get his point across. While he encourages looking at the role of the ego and learning to accept and deal with it, he doesn’t have any hard practice such as the 3-2-1 of Shadow.

…including Ken Wilber…

:extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy:

It’s possible of course that Tolle has largely integrated his Shadow elements, and this isn’t a factor for him… but it might be a factor for somebody else.

We should possibly agree that it’s quite likely for somebody else. Just about everyone has shadow elements. Look around here for some great examples. The problems with any sort of esoteric teaching is that the student has to do the really hard work, but too often in our western mindset, we want to take the easy route to enlightenment (salvation, by any other word), and by that we continually fall short of the mark.

Once again, Dae, thanks for your contributions here. At least one person understands and appreciates your astute assessment.

 

[prodigalson12]

We live in a time where people are hungry for a spirituality

At least this is worth discussing, the rest, not really, just folly of ill fated new age beliefs that have no basis in fact.

The reason people are hungry is because they don’t have a clue as to what goes on during mass, too many clearly lack most of the basics within what the church is, what it really stands for and how Christ himself is present within it. If they did they surely would not be hungry, as Christ said, blessed are the hungry, for they will have their fill.

 

[One]

At least this is worth discussing, the rest, not really, just folly of ill fated new age beliefs that have no basis in fact.

Thanks for being so dismissive of anyone else’s ideas. Charming.

Please just remember that this is your opinion regarding something that works for you. To dismiss “the rest” as folly doesn’t suggest that you have a very open mind on some subjects, and thus you are not to be considered even-handed in your responses. It doesn’t make for very enlightening conversation.

One size does not fit all (thank goodness.)

The reason people are hungry is because they don’t have a clue as to what goes on during mass…

For some, the reason they are hungry is that they’ve been sold a false bill of goods; or they’re tired of the raging hypocrisy of some religious institutions; or perhaps they’d rather think for themselves. Those are just a few other possible reasons. Your reasoning should not be considered the de facto answer as to other peoples’ motivations, unless you have placed yourself in the role of speaking for all others.

Have you?

 

[prodigalson12]

Thanks for being so dismissive of anyone else’s ideas. Charming.

Please just remember that this is your opinion regarding something that works for you. To dismiss “the rest” as folly doesn’t suggest that you have a very open mind on some subjects, and thus you are not to be considered even-handed in your responses. It doesn’t make for very enlightening conversation.

One size does not fit all (thank goodness.)

For some, the reason they are hungry is that they’ve been sold a false bill of goods; or they’re tired of the raging hypocrisy of some religious institutions; or perhaps they’d rather think for themselves. Those are just a few other possible reasons. Your reasoning should not be considered the de facto answer as to other peoples’ motivations, unless you have placed yourself in the role of speaking for all others.

Have you?

Ok, to give you some idea of the background of where I come from. I’ve studied many different religions including this new age stuff, what I found in all cases fell not only short of what God has given us with his word and his church, in too many cases they not only border sinister teachings, some are out right against human nature much less divine. This so called mystical experiences people seek exist within the church in so many ways, so many miricals have happened to prove this, the proof cannot be discounted.

I agree with you along often facing people that “claim” to have faith and don’t really practice it doing more damage to it then any outsider scoffing it, this is the sad truth to humanity in general and one of the reasons Christ told the parable of the sower. I don’t let an individual determine my beliefs, it’s between God and myself, I also have ran the gambit exploring what else out there that exists and in the end, across the board, it’s Christianity, in particular, the Catholic faith that reaches closest to the truth by far.

I do have to share something with you here, and this is why I’m so adament about telling people not to even tinker in this area. I used to study a book that seemed to be so innocent, I was deceived into thinking what it was was only a simple perspective and nothing more, what I found out is that it was drawing upon the very bowels of hell to make it work and believe me, I paid dearly for it. What happens with all of these types of teachings, you don’t take action when you should in your life, you put your faith in something other then God, and what gain you receive, you are forced to pay back in full with interest. I don’t know about you but I value my soul, I refuse to put it in jeopardy simply out of curiosity so I stand here proclaiming the truth and giving stern warning to those that choose to stray, trust me on it, it’s not worth it, not by far, and I hope to save people from a world of troubles.

 

[One]

Ok, to give you some idea of the background of where I come from.

I appreciate you giving that background information. It tells a lot about why you say the things you do, and that’s a good thing to help avoid misunderstandings.

I’ve studied many different religions including this new age stuff, what I found in all cases fell not only short of what God has given us with his word and his church, in too many cases they not only border sinister teachings, some are out right against human nature much less divine.

As one who has also been exposed to many different religions, I’d be interested in knowing which of those you’ve studied that you consider to be sinister and against human nature. Which ones would you assign to those two categories?

This so called mystical experiences people seek exist within the church in so many ways, so many miricals have happened to prove this, the proof cannot be discounted.

I wouldn’t disagree with that one at all. Mystical – or peak – experiences are available to anyone, at any age, at any time, and they have happened throughout all of recorded history. It would only go to follow that, since these experiences tend to be unexpected “accidents”, a venue such as church would make one “accident prone.”

I don’t let an individual determine my beliefs, it’s between God and myself…

Then I’d like to ask, with all due respect, why you set about trying to tell other individuals what to believe? Why not let it be between them and God, as you have done for yourself. The arrangement seems a bit lop-sided, unless you consider yourself to be an authority on all matters spiritual.

I do have to share something with you here, and this is why I’m so adament about telling people not to even tinker in this area. I used to study a book that seemed to be so innocent, I was deceived into thinking what it was was only a simple perspective and nothing more, what I found out is that it was drawing upon the very bowels of hell to make it work and believe me, I paid dearly for it.

Wow, what a story! Can I have the name of that book? I could take a few guesses, but I have one in mind in particular. Bowels of hell, indeed.

What happens with all of these types of teachings, you don’t take action when you should in your life, you put your faith in something other then God, and what gain you receive, you are forced to pay back in full with interest.

Sounds like a mortgage these days, doesn’t it?

I don’t know about you but I value my soul, I refuse to put it in jeopardy simply out of curiosity so I stand here proclaiming the truth and giving stern warning to those that choose to stray, trust me on it, it’s not worth it, not by far, and I hope to save people from a world of troubles.

You should be aware that the above is your opinion. It is your choice. It is your experience. And, most importantly, it is your notion of ‘the truth.’ (You used the pronoun “I” five times in the above paragraph, so I assume you’ll take ownership of that.)

Now, if you want to go shouting your truth (‘the Truth’, of course, cannot be shouted) to all who would listen, that’s your right to do so. And for those who would like to listen, they can listen to You as a pointer to Truth. These are the choices we all make.

But, I would imagine it might be difficult to reconcile your proclamation of your version of the truth with your notion of, “I don’t let an individual determine my beliefs…” Why should anyone listen to you?

This is not a jab; these are legitimate and respectful questions for you.
~

 

[prodigalson12]

With your line of thinking, blindly moving into areas without any kind of true discernment, you are going to reach a point where you are going to be in way over your head, by that time the only thing, and I mean the only thing that will save you will take God’s church.

I choose to disclose information and specifics on a need to know basis in order to eliminate people from experiementing and learning the hard way as I have. You’ll see me pop up and speak my mind when things such as that toll characters books come out, clearly pointing out that they are against God himself.

It’s obvious you choose to remain deceived, I pray one day you see the truth, for now you are still tinkering, eventually this will catch up to you and when it does it will be too late.

If you want to push the boundries and just get it over with, you might as well just dive straight into the church of satan, do the ceremonies, just take it to it’s end, at least you won’t be making arguments that may get us beleivers into hot water. Keep always in mind, this is a “Catholic” forum, not a buhist, not a new age, not any of that.

 

[Oreoracle]

With your line of thinking, blindly moving into areas without any kind of true discernment, you are going to reach a point where you are going to be in way over your head, by that time the only thing, and I mean the only thing that will save you will take God’s church.

What’s your idea of discernment? Is it the Church chewing your food and spoonfeeding it to you?

I choose to disclose information and specifics on a need to know basis in order to eliminate people from experiementing and learning the hard way as I have. You’ll see me pop up and speak my mind when things such as that toll characters books come out, clearly pointing out that they are against God himself.

What use is your god’s gift of free will if one of his minions won’t allow us to exercise it? Stop hogging his present!

It’s obvious you choose to remain deceived, I pray one day you see the truth, for now you are still tinkering, eventually this will catch up to you and when it does it will be too late.

If you ever stop tinkering, it means you’ve reached a dead end. If that suits you, fine, but don’t wave us over just so we have to stare at the wall you’re facing.

If you want to push the boundries and just get it over with, you might as well just dive straight into the church of satan, do the ceremonies, just take it to it’s end, at least you won’t be making arguments that may get us beleivers into hot water. Keep always in mind, this is a “Catholic” forum, not a buhist, not a new age, not any of that.

The question is, if we can convert believers, were they ever truly believers in the first place? Think of it as us purifying your church of “cafeteria Catholics.”

 

[prodigalson12]

What’s your idea of discernment? Is it the Church chewing your food and spoonfeeding it to you?

The truth is known by it’s fruits.

What use is your god’s gift of free will if one of his minions won’t allow us to exercise it? Stop hogging his present!

We have the free will to love him or not, a child has the free will to love their parents or not.

If you ever stop tinkering, it means you’ve reached a dead end. If that suits you, fine, but don’t wave us over just so we have to stare at the wall you’re facing.

God’s wisdom and knowledge is endless.

The question is, if we can convert believers, were they ever truly believers in the first place? Think of it as us purifying your church of “cafeteria Catholics.”

The Parable of the Sower

"And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: a sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."—Luke 8:4-8

You do indeed have a place even within God’s plan, your type are the thorns, it’s funny how you elect to think that you are exercising your free will when in reality you are doing exactly what God wants you to do… go on puppet, tell is more of your wisdom.

 

[One]

Prodigal –

Thanks for completely dodging my sincere questions. It speaks volumes that you can’t come back to me and engage in legitimate conversation, but that you have to admonish me for even asking.

With your line of thinking, blindly moving into areas without any kind of true discernment, you are going to reach a point where you are going to be in way over your head…

I might think that, as one who has admitted to taking a path of inquiry before finding the church, you would understand the need or inclination for others to do so as well. But, it doesn’t seem to be that way. Rather, you would take your personal experience and foist it upon all other people without letting them choose for themselves.

From what I understand, christianity has a long history of foisting an opinion on others, so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that a devout follower such as you should do the same thing.

I choose to disclose information and specifics on a need to know basis…

You would think that by citing the book, you would be doing me a favor! Do I not have a need to know? Am I not one of the lost, who could actually benefit from your cautionary statements?

If you know something that others should know, then why would you withhold this information from me, or anyone else who happens to be reading this thread?

That just doesn’t sound very loving or Christian. It sounds, instead, like you have a secret that would help some of us to salvation, but you refuse to divulge the information. That’s not christian – that’s just selfish.

You’ll see me pop up and speak my mind when things such as that toll characters books come out, clearly pointing out that they are against God himself.

Since this thread is about Tolle’s book, then please outline how Tolle is “against God himself.” I’m sure we all could benefit from your analysis.

Please cite examples of how Tolle is “against God.” Support your argument, please… that’s what these forums are all about.

I’d also be curious: Did you read “The Power of Now”, or any of the other Tolle books? Did you glean your information second-hand, via a review or a pamphlet put out by someone in the church? Do you categorically reject anything that you label as “New Age?” Or, do you simply not like the guy? IOW, what is the information that forms the planks of your argument?

If you cannot make a legitimate argument for your vitriol against Tolle, then I’ll have to assume that you don’t actually know what you’re talking about. Being dismissive and condescending does not a case make.

It’s obvious you choose to remain deceived, I pray one day you see the truth,

Awww, did you actually pray for me? That’s nice, thanks.

Normally, being “deceived” is not a choice we make for ourselves, so I reject the notion that I “choose” to remain deceived. Really, think about it: The moment one knows they’ve been deceived, they’re no longer subject to being deceived in the same way, and most everyone would move away from the source of the deceit, right? Rare would be the case where someone knows they’re being deceived, and yet they continue on to choose to be deceived. For example, if I’m a tourist on the street and get hooked into playing a game of Three-Card Monty, but then realize that there is a shill and the whole thing is a scam, I’m going to pack up my money and move along, no longer being subject to the obvious deceit.

So, what you consider ‘obvious’ is not quite so obvious. If I’m being deceived, it is not by my choice. Now, if it’s obvious to you and not to me, why would you withhold that information?

Again, I’d think someone like you – so knowledgeable and experienced and willing to tell others how to live and think – would be willing to help one who might be deceived.

But you aren’t. Curious. And mean.

If you want to push the boundries and just get it over with, you might as well just dive straight into the church of satan, do the ceremonies, just take it to it’s end,

I don’t favor Satan, thank you. Besides, even the devil is God. (Don’t forget: God is everything.) But no, I don’t choose to gravitate toward anybody/anything that you might label as satan. Oh… I just noticed… I might be deceived into such. Again, why wouldn’t you be willing to help?

…at least you won’t be making arguments that may get us beleivers into hot water.

If people’s beliefs are that fragile, then they shouldn’t be reading these fora. They should stick their head into the Bible and ignore all other forms of (name removed by moderator)ut…

… Which is exactly what you’re telling others to do.

Keep always in mind, this is a “Catholic” forum, not a buhist, not a new age, not any of that.

What on earth is a “buhist?” Boo-hiss?

If you have now moved beyond telling other people what to read and what not to read, into the realm of excluding other people from participating in a forum with their own ideas, then you’ve elevated your game to deciding who, and who cannot, speak here in your “Catholic” forum. (I didn’t realize it was “Catholics Only.”)

I’ve been civil with you, and I’ve asked you some legitimate questions, but you pull your head back into your shell, dodging the questions, telling me what I think, and making erroneous assumptions about my nature. That’s not a sign of someone who is actually strong in their faith; it’s a sign of weakness and uncertainty, in fact.

I’d like to remind you that when you speak, it is your opinion on matters. I’m just trying to discern what makes your opinion so much more valuable than that of someone else. Righteousness, perhaps?

Care to address my questions? I’m waiting for some answers from you.
~

 

[One]

You do indeed have a place even within God’s plan, your type are the thorns, it’s funny how you elect to think that you are exercising your free will when in reality you are doing exactly what God wants you to do… go on puppet, tell is more of your wisdom.

Prodigalson12 – Is condescension your normal mode of being? How about being patronizing? Why don’t you come down off your lofty perch and have a real, civil conversation with real people, instead of hurling insults around as though they meant nothing?

I hope a good friend of mine doesn’t mind me paraphrasing his words, but if it’s true that people who don’t happen to agree with your line of non-thinking belief are “puppets” who have a place in God’s plan, then it’s ironic that you are working tirelessly so that you may do God’s bidding and one day be in his presence. Meanwhile, “puppets” are God’s personal tool and they don’t even have to try. Who wins in the end?

Once again, I commend you to engage in legitimate discussion, if you are to write here at all. Is anyone well served by your habit of avoiding reasonable questions, hurling insults about, and condemning people who are merely asking for clarification?

Are your beliefs truly so weak that you cannot support them with intelligent justification, and have to resort to the type of discourse you’ve chosen?
~