Eclipse at the time of the crucifixion

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porthos11 said:
Well, sure but not between the sixth and ninth hours in the spring at that latitude. The sun would still be high in the sky at that time of day and the moon not risen yet.
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Some say the full moon rose in total eclipse that evening - the blood moon rose over Jerusalem, and since the ancients treated blood moons as an omen, after the crucifixion of that day, the day’s darkness, the earthquake, the Temple veil splitting, capped off by a blood moon, they were quite ‘spooked’. It was something they did not soon forget.

On Pentecost, Peter recalled for the listening Jews that feeling they had on the day Jesus died, as he quoted from Joel: the sun will be darkened and the moon as blood:

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice, and proclaimed to them, "You who are Jews, indeed all of you staying in Jerusalem. Let this be known to you, and listen to my words. These people are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning. No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:
‘It will come to pass in the last days,’ God says, ‘that I will pour out a portion of my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your young men shall see visions, your old men shall dream dreams. Indeed, upon my servants and my handmaids I will pour out a portion of my spirit in those days, and they shall prophesy. And I will work wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below: blood, fire, and a cloud of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and splendid day of the Lord, and it shall be that everyone shall be saved who calls on the name of the Lord.’
You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.​
They knew, because they saw it 50 days earlier, and remembered it.

The darkness was probably an act of God. Jesus told St. Faustina shortly before His return, darkness would cover the whole earth:
Write this: before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy. Before the day of justice arrives, there will be given to people a sign in the heavens of this sort.
All light in the heavens will be extinguished, and there will be great darkness over the whole earth. Then the sign of the cross will be seen in the sky, and from the openings where the hands and the feet of the Savior were nailed will come forth great lights which will light up the earth for a period of time. This will take place shortly before the last day. (Diary, #83) Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska: Divine Mercy in My Soul

God bless you.
 
It should be worth pointing out that we don’t know the exact year when Jesus died. All we know was that it happened somewhere during the prefecture of Pontius Pilate (AD 26-36) and the high priesthood of Joseph Caiaphas (AD 18-36), which would give us the latest possible date of AD 36. Many scholars suggest a date between 29-33 based on the literary evidence, though a few would propose an earlier or later date. It is usually claimed that the best candidate astronomically is 3rd April (Nisan 14), AD 33, and there are some people who favor this date. But in fact, we cannot be sure that modern astronomical retrojection of the Jewish calendar agrees with the actual calculation of dates in the 1st century.

The Jewish calendar was (and still is) luni-solar, with the year divided into months, and months reckoned strictly according to the phases of the moon. A lunar month begins with the new moon and lasts about 29 1/2 days, so months could be either 29 or 30 days long. Twelve such months produce a lunar year of 354 days, 11 1/4 days too short for a solar (seasonal) year, which is determined by the position of the earth relative to the sun. In a strictly lunar year the months back up. A side effect of this is that every year, each month comes 11 days earlier than the previous year; soon you would run into the problem of springtime festivals falling during winter. To rectify this problem, an extra thirteenth month was inserted every two or three years. Thus while most years were 354 days, some were 383 or 384 days long. Over a nineteen-year cycle, the total number of days comes out about right in terms of the solar calendar. Hence the reason why the Jewish calendar is luni-solar: the months are lunar, but the number of months is adjusted in order to bring the calendar into agreement with the solar year.

Now let’s compare this with the Gregorian calendar. Our calendar is not based on lunar phases, so that while we do have months, they do not start with the new moon, except coincidentally. On average our months are about 30 1/2 days long. Twelve months of this length, divided into six months of 30 days and six months of 31 days, would yield a year that is slightly too long in terms of the seasonal year. As a result, one month (February) only has 28 days. Every four years however we must add one day to February to keep the months in the right season; otherwise Christmas would eventually start arriving in autumn. (Were it not for leap years every 120 years each of our months would come 30 days earlier in the seasonal year.)

To determine when a day occurred astronomically (decided by the tilt of the earth on its axis and the phases of the moon), we have to know which years were leap years. We can retroject our own calendar into the past, taking account of leap years, and thus give absolute dates (i.e. dates in strict accord with our calendar) to ancient events.

Theoretically, we could also retroject the Jewish calendar and then relate it to our own. In order to do so, and determine when Nisan 14th/15th fell on a Friday we need to know which months were 29 days long, which were 30 days, and which years had the extra month. Today, astronomers can determine it by calculating, but the Jewish calendar was based, not on calculation, but observation. Observers had to look for the first faintly glowing lunar crescent following conjunction with the sun and then work slightly backwards from there (after all, you can’t see a new moon). The thing is that we cannot know anything about local atmospheric conditions 2,000 years ago, and those helped determine the calendar. Jews knew when to start looking: the arrival of the new moon did not surprise anyone, but still, if observers had to see it, they had to see it.

Let’s say, for example, that we are in AD 31. This year Nisan 14th should theoretically be on Tuesday, March 27th. But let’s suppose that Nisan fell a month late, and that observers were delayed from seeing the waxing crescent moon due to overcast or bad weather (you can never count on an absence of clouds, as eclipse observers will know). This would shift the date to, say, Wednesday or Thursday in late April. And this is the problem: when dates are fixed by observation, there is a range of possibilities, some more likely than others.

One must also remember that the date of Passover was determined not only by the visibility of the moon but also the season as determined by temperature and the growth of crops. Passover had to fall in the spring, and the first fruits of barley were offered in the Temple during the following festival of Unleavened Bread. The priests would have intercalated an additional month if temperatures were unseasonably cold and barley could not be presented, delaying the feasts further.
 
Seriously, we can accept all of the miracles in the Bible except this one? The NAB alone translates this as “eclipse” (all other Catholic and protestant Bibles say darkened, obscured, etc). The text itself does not say there was an eclipse:

The word in question:
The Byzantine Greek Text uses εσκοτισθη.
The Clementine Latin Vulgate uses obscuratus.

Luke 23:44-45

Greek: ην δε ωσει ωρα εκτη και σκοτος εγενετο εφ ολην την γην εως ωρας ενατης και εσκοτισθη ο ηλιος και εσχισθη το καταπετασμα του ναου μεσον

Latin: Erat autem fere hora sexta, et tenebræ factæ sunt in universam terram usque ad horam nonam. Et obscuratus est sol: et velum templi scissum est medium.

Douay-Rheims: And it was almost the sixth hour: and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

NAB: It was now about noon and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon because of an eclipse of the sun. Then the veil of the temple was torn down the middle.

The Jerusalem Bible: It was now about the sixth hour and, with the sun eclipsed, a darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. The veil of the Temple was torn right down the middle;

New Jerusalem Bible: It was now about the sixth hour and the sun’s light failed, so that darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. The veil of the Sanctuary was torn right down the middle.

KJV: And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

RSV: It was now about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour, while the sun’s light failed; and the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

NRSV: It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, while the sun’s light failed; and the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

NASB: It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, because the sun was obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.

Young’s Literal Translation: And it was, as it were, the sixth hour, and darkness came over all the land till the ninth hour, and the sun was darkened, and the vail of the sanctuary was rent in the midst,
 
Zekariya said:
Seriously, we can accept all of the miracles in the Bible except this one? The NAB alone translates this as “eclipse” (all other Catholic and protestant Bibles say darkened, obscured, etc). The text itself does not say there was an eclipse:
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Yes, as mentioned (I know I’m repeating myself here, but what’s bad with repetition? :D), most manuscripts have tou hēliou eskotisthē (“the sun was darkened”). The earliest witnesses, by contrast, have tou hēliou ekl(e)ipontos (“the sun fails/dies out”). Ekl(e)ipō (“to fail,” “to die out”) could denote an eclipse (after all, that’s where the word ‘eclipse’ comes from ;)) and thus is the harder reading, but it does not always refer to an eclipse; in fact, does not normally do so. Skotizō (“to darken”), by contrast, is a more common word and less likely to be misunderstood as referring to an eclipse of the sun by the moon.
 
patrick457 said:
Yes, as mentioned (I know I’m repeating myself here, but what’s bad with repetition? :D), most manuscripts have tou hēliou eskotisthē (“the sun was darkened”). The earliest witnesses, by contrast, have tou hēliou ekl(e)ipontos (“the sun fails/dies out”). Ekl(e)ipō (“to fail,” “to die out”) could denote an eclipse (after all, that’s where the word ‘eclipse’ comes from ;)) and thus is the harder reading, but it does not always refer to an eclipse; in fact, does not normally do so. Skotizō (“to darken”), by contrast, is a more common word and less likely to be misunderstood as referring to an eclipse of the sun by the moon.
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You’ve studied this further than I have and I have liked what you have said. 👍 I wasn’t speaking directly to you (or anyone else for that matter).

The general discussion seems to be about scientifically defining what/how the eclipse occurred. If the Father made the dead rise from their graves when Christ died, why couldn’t he darken the sun as a miraculous happening as well. Also, why don’t Catholic and protestant Bible translations outside of the NAB call it an eclipse? It seems that the translators of most Bibles don’t find eclipse to be accurate (even in the popular paraphrase Bibles). 🙂
 
patrick457 said:
Every four years however we must add one day to February to keep the months in the right season; otherwise Christmas would eventually start arriving in autumn.
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Judging from some of the store displays, Christmas does start arriving in autumn 😃
 
People thought that God actually “lived” in the Second Temple. So a darkness over the city of Jerusalem and a ripping of the Temple veil could certainly be related to an angry God.
 
Zekariya said:
You’ve studied this further than I have and I have liked what you have said. 👍 I wasn’t speaking directly to you (or anyone else for that matter).

The general discussion seems to be about scientifically defining what/how the eclipse occurred. If the Father made the dead rise from their graves when Christ died, why couldn’t he darken the sun as a miraculous happening as well.
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Exactly. If one is trying to find a natural explanation for the darkness I am more in the camp that thinks that it could be caused by a violent sandstorm (khamsin), which after all is not unknown in that area. But more likely, it could be a supernatural darkness that could not be firmly tied to any natural phenomenon.
Also, why don’t Catholic and protestant Bible translations outside of the NAB call it an eclipse? It seems that the translators of most Bibles don’t find eclipse to be accurate (even in the popular paraphrase Bibles). 🙂
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If you’re going to render tou hēliou eklipontos as “an eclipse of the sun” you’ll gonna run into the question of why would a solar eclipse occur during Passover. But then again, you gotta appreciate the NAB’s choice here: the original word, after all, is just as ambiguous as “eclipse” is in English (we could say that the sun is ‘eclipsed’ even if its not really a solar eclipse). 😉
 
patrick457 said:
Exactly. If one is trying to find a natural explanation for the darkness I am more in the camp that thinks that it could be caused by a violent sandstorm (khamsin), which after all is not unknown in that area. But more likely, it could be a supernatural darkness that could not be firmly tied to any natural phenomenon.
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I’m in the camp that it was miraculous… (not the blood moon which might be natural).

One of your quotes included Phlegon; whom Julius was incredulous (doubting) – did you happen to check the word Phlegon uses in Greek?
It’s obvious that Julius doubts it on account of nature; But the historian who records it isn’t a Christian, and had no reason to manufacture the unusual events.

The prophecy in the bible, to be sure, only mentions darkening. NA26th.
I’ve not checked Tischendorf, etc.
If you’re going to render tou hēliou eklipontos as “an eclipse of the sun” you’ll gonna run into the question of why would a solar eclipse occur during Passover. But then again, you gotta appreciate the NAB’s choice here: the original word, after all, is just as ambiguous as “eclipse” is in English (we could say that the sun is ‘eclipsed’ even if its not really a solar eclipse). 😉
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True.
And even if we took into account that there is a “makeup” passover for people who missed the first passover; the same problem remains about the timing.

I think “Bethlehem Star” is the name of the movie which documents an attempt to correlate all astronomical signs relating to prophecy though a computational model. But his final conclusion, if I recall correctly, was to point out that only a single convergence of data exists for all astronomical signs recorded; hence I believe he dates the crucifixion to the only blood moon calculated possible within the range of time the crucifixion could have happened, rather than the other way around;

He also bolsters his argument(s) from historians and corrections to them (eg: Josephus); For the Bethlehem star was dating multiple events, including the infancy narrative. Secular histories were not based on the Jewish luni-solar calendar.
 
Huiou_Theou said:
I’m in the camp that it was miraculous… (not the blood moon which might be natural).

One of your quotes included Phlegon; whom Julius was incredulous (doubting) – did you happen to check the word Phlegon uses in Greek?
It’s obvious that Julius doubts it on account of nature; But the historian who records it isn’t a Christian, and had no reason to manufacture the unusual events.
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The word Julius uses for Phlegon’s solar eclipse is ekleipsin hēliou.
I think “Bethlehem Star” is the name of the movie which documents an attempt to correlate all astronomical signs relating to prophecy though a computational model. But his final conclusion, if I recall correctly, was to point out that only a single convergence of data exists for all astronomical signs recorded; hence I believe he dates the crucifixion to the only blood moon calculated possible within the range of time the crucifixion could have happened, rather than the other way around;
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He also bolsters his argument(s) from historians and corrections to them (eg: Josephus); For the Bethlehem star was dating multiple events, including the infancy narrative. Secular histories were not based on the Jewish luni-solar calendar.
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Come to think of it, the star of Bethlehem and the darkness of the crucifixion are in many respects, treated alike. People identify them with the closest astronomical phenomenon they could lay their hands on. Which brings us to the question: just like the Good Friday darkness, why do we need to pin the star of Bethlehem on comets, supernovae, or any other grand natural astronomical phenomenon? Why couldn’t the star have been just something that only the Magi - who would have been astrologers anyway - could have noted (you know, kind of like how only astronomers and star-gazers could note things in the sky that most of the public don’t know of or care about). Or better yet, why can’t one take it as a supernatural sign? Why should there be a need to rationalize the star’s existence when Matthew says that the star did not so much blaze across the sky but “stopped over the place where the child was”?
 
My point in posting this:

Write this: before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy. Before the day of justice arrives, there will be given to people a sign in the heavens of this sort.
All light in the heavens will be extinguished, and* there will be great darkness over the whole** earth. Then the sign of the cross will be seen in the sky, and from the openings where the hands and the feet of the Savior were nailed will come forth great lights which will light up the earth for a period of time. This will take place shortly before the last day. *(Diary, #83) Diary of Saint Maria Faustina Kowalska: Divine Mercy in My Soul

is that Jesus said the WHOLE earth will be in darkness at the same time so it is either some heretofore unknown natural phenomenon or more likely a miracle, an act of God.

While not at all definitive, this alludes to the three hours of darkness during the death throes of God on the cross possibly resulting in an unnatural darkness during the daytime - i.e. a miracle. Note that the sign to come is reminiscent of the Crucifixion; it would not surprise me if it lasted for 3 hours.

God bless you.
 
patrick457 said:
The word Julius uses for Phlegon’s solar eclipse is ekleipsin hēliou.

Come to think of it, the star of Bethlehem and the darkness of the crucifixion are in many respects, treated alike. People identify them with the closest astronomical phenomenon they could lay their hands on. Which brings us to the question: just like the Good Friday darkness, why do we need to pin the star of Bethlehem on comets, supernovae, or any other grand natural astronomical phenomenon?
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I think you’d like the movie. He actually goes into some detail on that question, regarding the fact that the constellations are a “clock”; and that in the “fullness of time” God sent his son.

Let all the stars of heaven, worship him.

I’m a skeptic of all these types of calculations, but when it comes to the reasoning based on scriptural prophecy, I don’t find fault with his reasoning.
The only thing that bothers me is the notion that God named “orion” Orion, for if you know the history of the constellations; their names are from pagan mythologies. But – the scriptures do say, God calls the pleadies and orion, etc. and gave each star it’s name.

What we miss there, however, is that people were called “Gods” when referring to the leadership of peoples; Not as in “the” God, but as in God’s representative. (“I say you are Gods, but like any prince you shall die.”, or “to Aaron you shall be as God.”) So, it’s not that far off from the truth… We have right to suppose, based on Scripture, that God somehow guided – or chose – to make his son come when the constellations appropriately named signaled the correct time.
Why couldn’t the star have been just something that only the Magi - who would have been astrologers anyway - could have noted (you know, kind of like how only astronomers and star-gazers could note things in the sky that most of the public don’t know of or care about).
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Well, that’s one of the points in the movie; Most of us don’t sleep outside on the rooftops to stay cool in the evening, looking up at the sky and talking with our parents, brothers, sisters, etc. In those days, Changes in the face of the sky were things that people without light bulbs noticed when evening first came. People would have been far more familiar with the constellations than we are now.
Or better yet, why can’t one take it as a supernatural sign? Why should there be a need to rationalize the star’s existence when Matthew says that the star did not so much blaze across the sky but “stopped over the place where the child was”?
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Well, I see no reason what you say isn’t possible. But the fact that there were signs that Pagans would recognize even without the prophecy of the Christ Child based on the names of the stars – points to how God chooses to usurp all pagan worship and make it point at he, himself.

For, in the book of revelation – have you not noticed that there will be no more “sun”? The son himself will be its’ light. If you check the O.T. that’s one of the false things that Guards at the temple would mistakenly worship…

And so it is with each of the signs man mistook for God … God is Jealous. 🙂

When the Ark was lost to the enemy at shilo; in the temple of their God Dagon, the Ark was placed; In the morning they found the idol, Dagon, prostrate before the ark.

I think it fitting, that the King of Kings might come when the constellations for kings, took a bow.
 
According to Pastor Kong Hee, City Harvest Church, Singapore in the video clip “God in Ancient China”, Chinese Astronomers put the eclipse at AD31. Interesting clip, he also mentioned the birth of Christ. Won’t want to spoil the rest of the video though.

youtube.com/watch?v=RPtcMCSJVDA

This is in Chinese Mandarin and English. The birth is mentioned at around the 31:45 mark and the death at around the 36:33 mark. Being Chinese( but with an inadequate grounding i.e. zilch, in Chinese history and language), I find the video enlightening. I am assuming that the historic records he mentioned to be verifiable and accurate in his translation. Watch the whole video for other interesting bits of Chinese history and insights on Chinese thinking on Christianity which is labelled as a Western religion by many Chinese as well as other Asians.
 
Why would Chinese astronomers be any different than others in the world?
 
April 3, 33 AD is probably the correct crucifixion date because we know from ancient sources that Christ was crucified on a Friday and that he was crucified during the reign of Pontius Pilate as governor in Judea (26 AD-36 AD). We also know that he was killed the day before Passover. With this information in mind, there are only two possible dates. April 7, 30 AD and April 3, 33 AD. We know that a “blood red” moon rose over Jerusalem the night of Christ’s death. Scripture tells us so. What happens during a total lunar eclipse? The moon turns a dull red color. We know using mathematics and software that there was a total lunar eclipse visible in Jerusalem on the night of April 3, 33 AD. The most incredible thing about that, at least in my opinion, is that the moon went into eclipse before it rose over the horizon. Christ died somewhere around 3:00 in the afternoon. The moon started going into eclipse right around that time.

Also, what’s even more compelling, is that last year geologists found evidence of a major earthquake that occurred on April 3, 33 AD in the land of Judea. Matthew tells us there was an earthquake while Christ was on the cross. A link to their claims can be found in the link below:

dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2149750/Jesus-died-Friday-April-3-33AD-claim-researchers-tie-earthquake-data-gospels-date.html
 
Huiou,
You mentioned the god of Dagon. For the first time I know why when we were disapointed we used the phrase, “Dagon it”. I haven’t heard this said for a very long time, but when we were kids we said it all the time. And I’ve always wondered where that came from.

Just a thought.
 
Rolltide, that is really interesting.

However, it wouldn’t explain why there was darkness from noon to 3, because this would only happen if there was a solar eclipse, or if there were dark storm clouds. And if it were storm clouds, I would have thought the gospel would have said, there were clouds of darkness from noon to 3, and not mentioned the sun not shinning. It just seems out of place.

I still believe something happened to the sun, whether it was recorded or not, just as something happened to the sun when Moses raised his arms, or when the sun spun in the miracle at Fatima.

Not to say I don’t appreciate all the other fine explainations.

Also the centurian at the foot of the cross also expressed, “he is truely the son of God.” Now why whould he say that out of the clear blue? I think he saw something that impressed him deeply. Maybe it was the sun or the earthquate, or both.
 
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