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GregoryPalamas
Guest
Steven Merten:
CDL
Then, we are in agreement.
CDL
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A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
Steven Merten:
Steven Merten:
Steven Merten:
Steven Merten:
These are rhetorical questions without the benefit of leading into discussion which clarifies them and puts them into context.
Steven Merten:
How do you justify completely ignoring what two posters – Vern Humphrey and myself – have said regarding just that point? Most of us do not disagree that the poor must be helped. We disagree as to the means by which the poor can most effectively be helped. So how do you propose that Catholics feed the poor and house the homeless? Rather than casting aspersions on the Catholic Church, why not just answer the questions you yourself pose?
Steven Merten:
What is the Church, 1.1. Catholics, doing to care for the poor out of love for Jesus? This is another rhetorical question which does not benefit from further elaboration. You asked the question. Now you answer it. What is the Church doing? And please list all the things which the Church is doing.
Steven Merten:
Since you raised the question, this is what you should be focussed on. But, let me guess, it’s about someone else doing the right thing. I have news for you. You are the Church.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
Ani,
Am I missing something. I did not interpret Steve’s comments as provacative. Perhaps they are and I missed something. The Church should take care of the poor, especially those of the “Household of fatith.”
I’m not Roman Catholic, but Eastern Catholic, and may not understand how everything works in the RCC. I note how the Deacon is supposed to function through Karin’s link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article. Do you all notice that this is how Deacons do function? We can’t force the state to care for the more, but through moral suasion we can help the state care for some. However, what I’d really like to know is how the Church does function regarding housing for the poor and working poor.
Steve made reference to the World Bank. What I’d like to know there is how are Catholic economists working in other countries to help people become better at generating capital and in providing shelter for their own families there.
CDL
Am I missing something. I did not interpret Steve’s comments as provacative. Perhaps they are and I missed something. The Church should take care of the poor, especially those of the “Household of fatith.”
I’m not Roman Catholic, but Eastern Catholic, and may not understand how everything works in the RCC. I note how the Deacon is supposed to function through Karin’s link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article. Do you all notice that this is how Deacons do function? We can’t force the state to care for the more, but through moral suasion we can help the state care for some. However, what I’d really like to know is how the Church does function regarding housing for the poor and working poor.
Steve made reference to the World Bank. What I’d like to know there is how are Catholic economists working in other countries to help people become better at generating capital and in providing shelter for their own families there.
CDL
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Yes.
I have asked Steve to set out what the Church is doing for the poor.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
Does he have more insight than some other person? If he does I hope he will. If he doesn’t, then let’s us all find out. That’s part of why I started this thread.
Dan L
Dan L
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JMJ_Theresa
Guest
Hi guys, thanks for provoking us to think about this. We often get so caught up in meeting the needs of our families, we don’t look beyond ourselves. At least, I don’t. I’m feeling very challenged by this discussion.
It seems to me that the Church began with providing for it own community first–in Acts, it speaks of all the believers holding their property in common. I assume that they were not communists , but instead made sure that all needs in the community were provided for. So, is that the model for us–do we first take care our parish community, our archdiocese, our International Church, then look outside? I only ask because the needs seem so great, I would think there has to be a prioritization.
If you think this is a separate issue, ignore it. I don’t want to hijack the thread.
It seems to me that the Church began with providing for it own community first–in Acts, it speaks of all the believers holding their property in common. I assume that they were not communists , but instead made sure that all needs in the community were provided for. So, is that the model for us–do we first take care our parish community, our archdiocese, our International Church, then look outside? I only ask because the needs seem so great, I would think there has to be a prioritization.
If you think this is a separate issue, ignore it. I don’t want to hijack the thread.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
Theresa,
I think you are exactly right. We are the Kingdom of God on earth so those who are part of the Kingdom are cared for first. We ought also to support world evangelization but it should be clear that those who are baptized are cared for first. Then as the community of the faithful are cared for then that community cares for others.
I have a very simple, probably too simple, analogy to offer. When flying and an emergency arises who puts on the oxygen mask first?
CDL
I think you are exactly right. We are the Kingdom of God on earth so those who are part of the Kingdom are cared for first. We ought also to support world evangelization but it should be clear that those who are baptized are cared for first. Then as the community of the faithful are cared for then that community cares for others.
I have a very simple, probably too simple, analogy to offer. When flying and an emergency arises who puts on the oxygen mask first?
CDL
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BlestOne
Guest
I want to give you all another perspective on this. I have been to that place, where none of us ever want to be. I have been days away from losing a house, no job or a substandard one and 4 mouths to feed. There are programs to help pay the morgage, heat and utilities. There is even a program with verizon to reduce the cost of a phone. There are state programs for food and money too. The problem is, they are administered by humans and they are flawed. Don’t get me wrong, they can be wonderful programs…and they have helped many, but they don’t meet everybody’s needs nor should they. Here is a biased opinion, mine. When my husband of 12 yrs just walked out the door then 6 months later I was laid off my job, I tried for 5 months to find a job unsuccessfully and finally had to get help. I found that in my state there is a bias in the midst of welfare reform. I was required to attend a meeting 20 miles from where I live, go through countless interviews with people that required the same information over and over, just to see if I qualified for food stamps. Do you know how much it costs to drive 20 miles and back at least 4 times to get money for food? If I had that money, it would be going for food. Then, to get help money wise, which is in the same office, I had to prove I had no job skills, to which they said I had too many job skills. Once I did fight and got it approved, I had 1 month to find a job, (like the last 5 months that I had been laid off were spent laying on a beach?) or I either lost the money or had to work for free with no daycare included at my local Human Services office. Also required was this meeting, that more resembled a tent revival, where they talked up the benefits of having a job. I had been working for the past 20 some years, didn’t they think I knew the benefits to working? Anyway, I go to this meeting, there I meet people of all races and creeds…alot of white women that looked so down trodden I could barely look their direction. About 1/3 of the women were moslem, all angry and combative saying that nobody was going to force them to work since they were going to college. Then there was a distinct minority of black women, most uhh-huhing to the revival meeting style talk. A few were grumbling about it “not bein a church meetin’” At that point, I wondered what the actual demographic was in my area for folks applying for aid. I went to the unemployment office and the local library and did some research. Then I called the Human Services office and asked for stats. WHat I found out shocked me. The state required 20% of all aid recipients to be put on the reform plan, but they didn’t say how that 20% were to be picked. So the county I lived in, the Human Services office was run by and employed mostly African -Americans, so they decided to administer it in a prejudicial way. I have never given a second thought to race before, now, I am thinking, “What, a white woman is less entitled to aid?” In the end, I took a substandard parttime job and did alot of babysitting to get by. I tried to get into their education program and was again told I had too many job skills, now just where were all those high tech electronic jobs in rural Illinois? So I then went to the unemployment office to see what educational plans they had there. Surprize! I qualified for 2 of the 3 programs they offered. So, I went back to school, worked parttime and struggled to pay for utilities. Then they recommended I get help from the Urban league. I went in there, and found out what I needed to do. Make an appointment, bring utility bills, proof of residency, and proof of all dependants living with me along with paystubs. So I took another day off work to do this, and it was worth it because in the end I did get approved, that is until they sent me a letter saying that they were out of money, but if they had some, this is how much I would get credited to my bills. I had to wait until my gas got shut off then they have emergency money to pay for it to be turned back on and pay my past due bill. All this time, I am trying to get child support from my ex so I don’t have to go to these places to get help. Nobody could help me with that though.
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Karin
Guest
If the child support is court mandated very state has agencies that WILL help you get that court order filled!
(I speak from experience on this one!)
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BlestOne
Guest
So I worked and went to school, my parish gave me grants so that I could send my kids to Catholic school, and they even gave me a job. I was very grateful! My battle continued. I still to this day, cannot collect child-support so I usually have to work two jobs just to make ends meet. It is sad to think that even with a salaried job, I was still able to qualify for food stamps until I got married. Thankfully, after alot of medical bills I got the kids a medical card. I still can’t go to the doctors though just because I owe them 2500 dollars, my appointments get cancelled, but I guess they can’t hold that against the kids thank God!!! I had to quit school to have back surgery with only 3 classes to go and I haven’t found the time or money to go back. I was offered a full scholarship to a Catholic University though, nice thought but I couldn’t take it because it would require moving to the other side of the state and the scholarship covered tuition and books but not living expenses. So here are a few things to think about:
- Some of the folks that go for aid really do want to work, some don’t. Seek out the ones that want to improve…they will do anything to get back on their feet.
- Aid doesn’t help if you can’t get to appointments required to get it
- If you want to help…pray for people, one of the nicest things anyone did for me was to put an Easter card on my door with cash in it so I could buy the kids Easter stuff. It wasn’t the money that touched my heart, it was the card…somebody cared enough to take the time to think of my family as they prepared their family for Easter too.
- Offer a job, we want to earn our way, not be given hand outs. I could have applied for aid 5 months earlier but I was too proud to.
- Offer rides to these appointments…that would be a big help, or offer to watch the kids while the parent goes to these appointments.
- If you are blessed with resources, do hire someone that doesn’t, give them a chance. If possible, know their situation and help in other ways besides financial. It actually means more, when you are treated like a normal human being rather than some poor charity case.
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
Blest One,
I always advise people to seek help from the Church first. Then if necessary go to the state. The Church knows its own far better than the State. But then, sometimes, the Church agency employees act just like the state employees partly because they are hired from the same pool and often using the same standards and the same sources of income. This latter has to change.
I could recount several stories how I or the Church I served helped people but they are anecdotal. The greatest problem I see in so many situations is that the Church has too often followed the patterns set down by the State rather than following its own.
How do we change that?
CDL
I always advise people to seek help from the Church first. Then if necessary go to the state. The Church knows its own far better than the State. But then, sometimes, the Church agency employees act just like the state employees partly because they are hired from the same pool and often using the same standards and the same sources of income. This latter has to change.
I could recount several stories how I or the Church I served helped people but they are anecdotal. The greatest problem I see in so many situations is that the Church has too often followed the patterns set down by the State rather than following its own.
How do we change that?
CDL
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Steve is the one who raised a question about what the Church is doing for the poor.
Steve Merten:
Since he called what the Church is doing into question, it is contingent on him to show what the Church is doing.
If he doesn’t, I think it is useful to know what the Church is doing; particularly if one then directly or indirectly implies – by means of rhetorical questions – that the Church is doing nothing or not enough.
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BlestOne
Guest
Greg, I did go to the church and they offered me financial counselling and gave me a $50 voucher for food. That was good for an emergency, but long term I needed more help. I also had a pride thing going on…I don’t think I would have accepted any more from them at that time. I learned through all I went through at that time, to ask for help when I needed it and the bigggest lesson was to have faith…it was funny how my needs were met at the time I needed it most when I just had faith.
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BlestOne
Guest
Karin,
I am one of those cases that slip through the cracks…my lawyer screwed up so I can’t get it…and now would be pointless to try because nobody can find him.
I am one of those cases that slip through the cracks…my lawyer screwed up so I can’t get it…and now would be pointless to try because nobody can find him.
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Karin
Guest
Blestone…
No matter how crappy the laywer in the past…the exhusband can always be found…once again there are organizations that can help you with this, with minimal or no cost!
But you know your situation better than anyone else…if you say you can not get it than I am sure you are right.
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BlestOne
Guest
Karin,
Yes I agree, there are ways. But at what point do you just give up? I have been through 4 lawyers, and social services among other orgainizations…he quit his job and moved so we couldn’t find him. He now will only work under the table so there is no employment record or taxes paid. At this point, it has been almost 7 years of trying, more like wasted energy, and I am sure his income would not support paying his child-support so it is time to give it up and turn it over to God’s care.
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Karin
Guest
Blestone-
I am truly sorry that you have had such a hard time with this issue…I am sure if the order was enforced some of your burdens could of been lessend!
If it where. never! This is something that is not mine but my for the welfare of my children…so I would never stop in attempting to track this person down and get what is owed to my kids!
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BlestOne
Guest
Now that I have told you my personal story, let me tell you about our hispanic ministry at our parish. We are a very small parish, but we have taken on a ministry to migrant workers in our area. We have a nun in charge of it, and she is fabulous! She calls around to get the men jobs. She even made an alliance with my boss, who now employs a couple of the families. They live on his properties, feed his cattle and do farm chores. This leaves them free during the day to also work other jobs for money. He offered them rent free for 3 months and if they are doing a good job, he extends it. He has paid to have their vehicles fixed for them and many other things too. At the Parish offices we have ESL classes for the mom’s, dad’s and older kids while my daughter and other kids provide babysitting for the babies. One of our Parishoners has a building that used to be a hospital that he has converted the top floor for housing of the hispanics that don’t have anywhere else to live. We have clothing drives for the entire community, but then also some just for our hispanic families too. They are given grants to send their kids to our Catholic School so they can get a good education. In return our hispanic community celebrates some of their special holidays with us. The women catered a nice celebration meal and mini festival for the rest of us to say thanks…it was really nice. Sister usually insists that I speak spanish with her to improve my spanish so there is less of a language barrier. All in all, for being a small parish with limited funds we do very well for our parish community, but as always, we could do better. So I await any suggestions from my fellow CA members. Thanks!
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GregoryPalamas
Guest
I had a handyman who was recommended to me by a real estate agent. He was pretty good. During a discussion with him I learned that he had four children from four different women and was working on a cash only basis. When he finished that job and told him I would not hire him any more. It is immoral to hire people for cash when one knows they are hiding income from their children. I did counsel him to get right with his children but I doubt that he did.
The tenants I have in one house have children from former relationships. His boss tells me that he probably makes more than I do. He never has the rent money and claims he sends money to his other children. He’s paid by cash to hide his income.
On a related note: Our national deficit might disappear if the underground economy were eliminated. But how does one get that done?
CDL
The tenants I have in one house have children from former relationships. His boss tells me that he probably makes more than I do. He never has the rent money and claims he sends money to his other children. He’s paid by cash to hide his income.
On a related note: Our national deficit might disappear if the underground economy were eliminated. But how does one get that done?
CDL
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Karin
Guest
Blestone-
This is wonderful …!!!
Quick question though is anyone attempting to help them (migrants) get their status changed to LEGAL aliens?
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