Ectopic Pregnancy - analogy

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Poor analogy. There is just reason to have a medical procedure done in ectoptic pregnancy. The unintended result is the death of a child. Yes it was the result but if nothing was done both would have died.

Tooo bad the culture of death has not figured how to move the baby to a safe place to finsih its growth period. A few couples that I know of in this situation would have done anything to have been able to continue with their pregnancy.
You did not give a choice that would have allowed the unintended result. All your choices were deliberate.
 
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yochumjy:
I know I’m repeating myself, but intent is more than just thought process. It is part action. If your action is to remove the baby, then your intent is to save the mother by aborting the baby. This is inherently different than taking out the area that will rupture and that caused the problem (right now this is only talking about a tubal) I have not looked at the others, and frankly, I might not have an acceptable answer. I pray we are not put to the test.
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The Church only teaches that in cases of danger for the mother and embryo the doctors should try to save both lives. In the case presented here the pregnancy is not viable: the embryo will certainly die. But let’s try to save the live of the mother and embryo. If the doctors do nothing they surely will die, or should we leave the mother alone and wait until she and the embryo dies? Isn’t it absurd? The only way we can try to save both lives is to remove (not kill) the embryo from its location. That should be the first step and that independently on whether or not we can save the embryo’s life. Perhaps we will be able to save it in the future, but the fact that no technique exists to do it now does not mean that the first step of removing the embryo without killing intention should not be performed. In fact, the doctors try to save both but they did not have the adequate techniques yet to save one of them. They just tried.

Regards,

Jose
 
Has anyone bothered to ask an apologist about this? They would probably be the ones who could find a definitive answer that none of us could argue about. I do think that saying the removal of the child in this case is equal to an abortion is wrong and here is why; my grandmother had a disease or condition where the lining of her uterus flaked off, because of this she could not have children anymore. There were other complications which would have lead to her death had the doctors not performed a hysterectomy. So is she commiting a sin like all the people who voluntarily have hysterectomies, vasectomies and tube-tying? I don’t think so.
 
Another thing that just came to my mind was that the baby cannot live and grow in a womans fallopian tube, so the child (at this stage in medical technology) cannot come to term, so the removal is not murder. Of the embryo gets to a certain size, the tube will burts causing serious trouble for the mother. AS far as removing the tube, what good does that do? I get that there is a higher risk of the same thing happening again, but only in THAT tube. we have two, and every month it switches between the two, so in jan in may be the left, and in feb. it would be the right, so perhaps instead people should use responsiblity and abstain from sex that month and wait until the other side is ovualting, that way the “damaged” tube will not be the one the child passes through. In taking out the tube, its making a decision like taking the pill, or using a condom, God will take care of his people, it is not up to us to change ourseleves that way, we do not take it into our hands. NFP is a good way to take care of it without playing God.
 
See this regarding an ectopic pregnancy and the doctrine of double effect. This is a much better analogy. This is an explanation from Father Hardon, S.J. Do the four conditions exist on the analogy given on the first post by BlindSheep? That is what should be up for debate. If I’m not mistaken (and sombody correct me if I’m wrong) I believe it was St. Thomas Aquinas that first wrote about the four conditions that must be met.
 
You haven’t had to lose a child this way, evidently. It is no small matter to lose a child – even a pre-born one. To almost lose one’s life at the same is also a sobering experience. That moment when you realize that you are mortal and God might have willed otherwise for me…:eek:

When I had my ectopic pregnancy, I was still certain that I could never concieve. The nurse had to show me a positive pregnancy test. I was laying there with an abdomen full of blood saying, “You don’t understand, I can’t get pregnant.”

It is my only pregnancy with my husband. The child died before we had a chance to rejoice over it.

My pregnancy had ruptured my fallopian tube so the salpingectomy (tube removal) was moot. The four units of blood they suctioned out of my abdomen were partially replaced in a transfusion the next day.

Thanks to medical insurance, I was released less than 24 hours and more like 12 hours after recieving three units of blood.

I then mourned the baby’s loss. Learned of another woman, younger than me, who had died from her ectopic pregnancy rupturing on the day I had my surgery. :gopray:

Wow, why did God let me live and not her? I was probably the worse sinner of the two of us. I have tried to be a good Catholic mom and wife, but am a mortal who fails a lot. We have adopted three “special needs” kids.

Anyway, not even going into the analogy of rock climbing, he who has not endured this no win situation should not be so critical…

Somebody did say that I had an abortion when I had my surgery for the ruptured ectopic pregnancy. Gee, thanks. The baby was not viable – they couldn’t implant it in my uterus and what else could I do but bleed to death or die of infection?

All I can say is to walk a mile in my shoes.:crying: You wouldn’t be so flippant if you had lost a child like this.
 
I am not a very religous person but I am a mother.
There are risks in any pregnancy. I had to be on house rest at 4 months and when my child was born I had an inversion of the utrus.
Everyone is getting hung up on the analogy!
If a woman was to stay preg with a ectopic pregnancy chances are she could/would die the baby not being carried to term or even close… therefore killing mother and child.
So the real question becomes die with your child or live without him/her.
And if you allow yourself to die is it not a form of suicide?
 
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migurl:
Has anyone bothered to ask an apologist about this? They would probably be the ones who could find a definitive answer that none of us could argue about. I do think that saying the removal of the child in this case is equal to an abortion is wrong and here is why; my grandmother had a disease or condition where the lining of her uterus flaked off, because of this she could not have children anymore. There were other complications which would have lead to her death had the doctors not performed a hysterectomy. So is she commiting a sin like all the people who voluntarily have hysterectomies, vasectomies and tube-tying? I don’t think so.
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Apologists have opinions, just like everyone else. The true answer can only come from the Pope. We are called to use our heads and our well formed consciences. That’s why I think my opinion on such a matter is just as valid as anyone elses, save the pope.
 
Surely the important point about this analogy with roped mountain climbers is that sadly the man at the bottom of the rope (the baby figure) is going to die whatever happens, given current technology.

But also, both parties will die unless the rope is cut. Cutting the rope will at least save the top man who figures as the pregnant women in the ectopic pregnancy analogy.

Let Jesus bring to you the peace of Christmas now and every day.
 
I don’t know much about mountain climbing but wouldn’t you have some sort of additional spike or something on you to put in the mountain and enable the mountain to handle your weight and your buddy. Do they even let people moutain climb without taking the precautions that would prevent this?
 
Well why bother going back to the analogy it’s not that important. I suppose we can only pray that all pregnancies continue a healthy course.

But of course some don’t, and doctors can’t solve everything, they sometimes don’t have that alternative. It’s not a perfect world is it, even though God made it. So you may do it this way or that way because you think you know how it should be. Apparently God lets things happen the way they do. That’s why prayer and reliance on God for help is a good remedy. In the end we have to choose and act with God’s help.
 
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