ectopic pregnancy

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lynnehelen

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…a generally hushed up matter. I know two cases, an anonymous woman’s, and my mother’s.

The Catholic radio station I listened to in Florida always prayed for “life, from natural conception to natural death.”

I know that in today’s era of the predominance and even domination by modern medicine, the answer seems obvious. You save the mother; they can’t both make it.

But surgical removal of a living ectopic child, is not “natural death.”

I know from the two experiences I referenced above that the consequences of surgical intervention in an ectopic pregnancy in the continuing life of the mother and everybody associated with her, can be devastating and far-reaching.

As I said, the answer seems obvious, and nobody is going to try to stop doctors from performing surgery to end the life of a living ectopic child to save the life of the mother.

Counseling is available for abortion. What about ectopic pregnancy? I am pointing it out that it is NOT a routine matter.
 
I am not sure why you believe ectopic pregnancy is “generally hushed up” or really what you even mean by it.

The Church has a teaching on the matter, and it is covered under the Principle of Double Effect.

And, yes, the child does die naturally. The tube is not a natural habitat and if it cannot be relocated to the uterus it dies.
 
My mom had an ectopic pregnancy. If it was not removed she would have died and the baby had no chance to survive.

However about 35 years ago I went to a priest gave it a name and had some sort of rite performed to honor it. It was a long time ago and I honestly don’t remember the details.
 
I am not sure why you believe ectopic pregnancy is “generally hushed up” or really what you even mean by it.

The Church has a teaching on the matter, and it is covered under the Principle of Double Effect.

And, yes, the child does die naturally. The tube is not a natural habitat and if it cannot be relocated to the uterus it dies.
Agreed, I’m not sure where the “hushed” attitude is coming from. It’s pretty clear.
 
I am not sure why you believe ectopic pregnancy is “generally hushed up” or really what you even mean by it.

The Church has a teaching on the matter, and it is covered under the Principle of Double Effect.

And, yes, the child does die naturally. The tube is not a natural habitat and if it cannot be relocated to the uterus it dies.
My youngest daughter experienced an ectopic pregnancy five weeks ago:( Her tube ruptured,resulting in it’s removal. She was five weeks pregnant. She is dealing with a mix of emotions,losing a baby this way is very traumatic not to mention the loss of her tube.Apparently this occurs pretty frequently,something like every 40 to 50 pregnancies. I have to wonder how many women died ,in the past,simply because they weren’t even aware they were pregnant.My daughter didn’t experience a lot of pain,it was the HGClevels that kept fluctuating,that led the dr. to suspect an ectopic pregnancy.
 
The Church has a teaching on the matter, and it is covered under the Principle of Double Effect.
Actually, the Church does not have a teaching on this, but there is a common theological argument that is often taught in Catholic schools, etc.

The bishop’s guidelines for caregivers:

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/health-care/upload/Ethical-Religious-Directives-Catholic-Health-Care-Services-fifth-edition-2009.pdf

Give no allowance for direct abortion and only a narrow allowance for double effect.

I generally don’t quote the Catholic Encyclopedia, but the entry on Abortion does have a section which is historically accurate:
The teachings of the Catholic Church admit of no doubt on the subject. Such moral questions, when they are submitted, are decided by the Tribunal of the Holy Office. Now this authority decreed, 28 May, 1884, and again, 18 August, 1889, that “it cannot be safely taught in Catholic schools that it is lawful to perform . . . any surgical operation which is directly destructive of the life of the fetus or the mother.” Abortion was condemned by name, 24 July, 1895, in answer to the question whether when the mother is in immediate danger of death and there is no other means of saving her life, a physician can with a safe conscience cause abortion not by destroying the child in the womb (which was explicitly condemned in the former decree), but by giving it a chance to be born alive, though not being yet viable, it would soon expire. The answer was that he cannot. After these and other similar decisions had been given, some moralists thought they saw reasons to doubt whether an exception might not be allowed in the case of ectopic gestations. Therefore the question was submitted: “Is it ever allowed to extract from the body of the mother ectopic embryos still immature, before the sixth month after conception is completed?” The answer given, 20 March, 1902, was: “No; according to the decree of 4 May, 1898; according to which, as far as possible, earnest and opportune provision is to be made to safeguard the life of the child and of the mother. As to the time, let the questioner remember that no acceleration of birth is licit unless it be done at a time, and in ways in which, according to the usual course of things, the life of the mother and the child be provided for”. Ethics, then, and the Church agree in teaching that no action is lawful which directly destroys fetal life. It is also clear that extracting the living fetus before it is viable, is destroying its life as directly as it would be killing a grown man directly to plunge him into a medium in which he cannot live, and hold him there till he expires.
newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm

Something that was commonly taught through the 20th century in Catholic schools is that there is a moral distinction between salpingectomy and salpingostomy. That is, between surgically removing the fetus and attempting to save the tube and removing a section of the tube. The idea is that if you simply remove the section of tube, you can pretend that there might not be an embryo in there so it’s death is by double effect.

The doctor who first postulated this conceded that it is a very, “hair thin” distinction. It has never been universally accepted by theologians, and it has never been directly taught by the Magisterium.

In fact, in 2008 Rome issued a doctrinal note arguing against common arguments of double effect and the human embryo, though ectopic pregnancy was not directly addressed:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20081208_dignitas-personae_en.html

The big problem with the old embryo removal vs. tubal ligation argument is that medical care has advanced. When the distinction was first made, the situation generally only arose after internal bleeding was occurring and surgery was already inevitable. Tubal repair had a very low probability of success, so the impact on maternal health for observing the distinction was small. Also, without opening the tube, there was some doubt if, in fact, an ectopic pregnancy was the root cause.

In modern medicine ectopic pregnancies can be detected numerous ways, even prior to hemorrhaging. We also now have plasma and antibiotics, which lower the odds of maternal death. So double effect is challenged in two ways, it is no longer a balance of risks between the two patients, and the surgeon generally knows, with certainty, that an embryo is present.

This has created a fairly fierce theological debate. If you go to the NCBC, which I see was linked above and simply search for “ectopic” you will get a glimpse that multiple points of view are now often presented (the link is a single point of view, not a policy position from the NCBC). Many articles are only available to members, but some cover things like a group of Catholic hospitals protocol for using methodrexate for ectopic pregnancies. It involves fairly advanced imaging technology to confirm that certain key structures are now absent from the embryo, similar to common tests to determine when organ donation is licit. Then MTX is administered. The advantage to the mother is that there is no surgery and no sterilization (which is also generally a sin).

I am not arguing for any particular theological interpretation or medical course. I am simply noting that this is a tragic situation, which seems to be rising because of environmental factors, not specific behaviors by individual women. Decisions should be made by women with the help of their families, doctors, and their pastors. Both the women and their short lived offspring, should have our prayers.
 
My youngest daughter experienced an ectopic pregnancy five weeks ago:( Her tube ruptured,resulting in it’s removal. She was five weeks pregnant. She is dealing with a mix of emotions,losing a baby this way is very traumatic not to mention the loss of her tube.Apparently this occurs pretty frequently,something like every 40 to 50 pregnancies. I have to wonder how many women died ,in the past,simply because they weren’t even aware they were pregnant.My daughter didn’t experience a lot of pain,it was the HGClevels that kept fluctuating,that led the dr. to suspect an ectopic pregnancy.
Your family has my prayers.
 
Thank you!🙂
I am especially concerned because I gave a long explanation of current teaching and theology above which, in your current circumstances, could be misconstrued and painful. If you do read it, PLEASE read the last paragraph. These are tragic situations and I have nothing but love and sympathy for everyone involved, no matter what specific medical choices were made.

Pax Christi
 
I had an ectopic pregnancy in April 2010. We were given two options, one being an abortificiant medication to help expel the baby from my tube and the other was to surgically remove my tube. At the time I wasn’t practicing my faith, but thankfully we went with the surgical option. I later learned that this was acceptable by the CC teachings as the fallopian tube was not created to sustain a pregnancy. By removing the damaged or diseased organ the baby dies of natural causes.

I am not sure why the OP made it sound like ectopic pregnancies are this unspoken issue either. 🤷
 
Counseling is available for abortion. What about ectopic pregnancy? I am pointing it out that it is NOT a routine matter.
While I also have not heard of counseling specific to survivors of an ectopic pregnancy, it certainly is possible to obtain such counseling.

A mother in such a situation would understandably suffer from survivor’s guilt because she lives while her child died. Many counselors are able to help their patients deal with this.

Since this specifically involves the death of a preborn child, abortion counseling can be particularly tuned to helping mothers whose children died due to the surgical removal of an affected tube. I am sure that most post-abortion counselors are readily prepared for such a call.
 
I had a rare type of ectopic pregnancy. I was carrying twins, one implanted normally, the other implanted halfway in my cervix. The cervix was being pushed open and the yolk sac was half in the cervix, half in the vagina. I lost that twin at 12 weeks along. Praise God that I only lost one and it occurred naturally. It was heartbreaking enough, medical intervention would have been so much harder on us. My doctor at the time was preparing to leave medicine for the seminary (he has now been a priest for 13 yrs). He was so good at helping us through the pain, always talking about our baby, not the fetus or embryo.

My oldest sister had an ectopic pregnancy in her tube. She didn’t know she was pregnant and thought it was appendicitis. Her dr discovered the ruptured tube during surgery. She had to have her tube removed. No one will ever convince me that she did anything wrong. It is not a choice like an abortion is. If the surgery doesn’t occur, both mom and baby will die. In the unlikely case that the mother survives without surgery, the baby still dies. It is not even close to an elective abortion. It is much closer to a D&C preformed after a miscarriage. Both are done for the health of the mom after a very horrendous loss of her child. Including the ectopic pregnancy I had, my husband and I have lost 8 babies. I have needed D&C’s after three of those miscarriages. For me, it is always harder when surgery is necessary. There is a feeling of guilt, of “what if the baby really was ok and I just killed him or her,” of never fully understanding. I can only imagine the devastation my sister and others like her must feel. My heart aches for any family going through those circumstances.
 
I am especially concerned because I gave a long explanation of current teaching and theology above which, in your current circumstances, could be misconstrued and painful. If you do read it, PLEASE read the last paragraph. These are tragic situations and I have nothing but love and sympathy for everyone involved, no matter what specific medical choices were made.

Pax Christi
In my daughters’ case,there were definite red flags that were largely ignored by her physician. If not for the fact that one of my older daughters’ is an OBGYN nurse, I fear that my daughter could have very well died. She first went in after confirming pregnancy by way of a home test. Her blood work was done.A few weeks later she went to to have the horomone levels checked,they had dropped,it was then determined that she would miscarry. Went in again,the levels has risen. The doctor didn’t seem too concerned. It was through the advice of her sister,that my daughter followed up with her concerns that this could be an ectopic. It wasn’t until my daughter began cramping and bleeding(assuming the miscarriage had begun,remember she never has real significant pain) that she went in to the ER. By then,her tube has already ruptured. Needless to say there was a lot of backpedaling by the senior doc(who by the way is my dr.!) honestly,as difficult as this situation was,I feel that everything occured naturally,my daughter wasn’t faced with having to remove the embryo in order to save her tube.😦
 
She had to have her tube removed. No one will ever convince me that she did anything wrong.
And no one ever should try to convince you it was wrong. If they do, then they do not understand Church teaching. As 1ke mentioned, the Church teaching on moral theology (“double effect”) covers this circumstance: what your sister went through, and how she resolved it, is not considered ‘wrong’ by the Church!

Blessings,

G.
 
While I also have not heard of counseling specific to survivors of an ectopic pregnancy, it certainly is possible to obtain such counseling.

A mother in such a situation would understandably suffer from survivor’s guilt because she lives while her child died. Many counselors are able to help their patients deal with this.

Since this specifically involves the death of a preborn child, abortion counseling can be particularly tuned to helping mothers whose children died due to the surgical removal of an affected tube. I am sure that most post-abortion counselors are readily prepared for such a call.
I have already mentioned this on another thread. Rachael’s Vineyard Ministries,is in the process of formulating a healing retreat for women and men who have lost babies through miscarriage. 👍
 
And no one ever should try to convince you it was wrong. If they do, then they do not understand Church teaching.
I would go further and say that no one should aggressively argue that any particular course in this difficult situation is inarguably right or wrong. Even different Catholic hospitals have different protocols. You do not want to create a situation where someone mistakenly believes that only tubal removal is doctrinally licit if they are in a Catholic hospital that offers a different protocol and the attending physicians are looking at best prognosis for the mother and her future fertility.
As 1ke mentioned, the Church teaching on moral theology (“double effect”) covers this circumstance: what your sister went through, and how she resolved it, is not considered ‘wrong’ by the Church!
Strictly speaking, 1ke is incorrect. The Church has no such teaching. But this particular case has circumstances that are widely held by Catholic health organizations to be licit. But, as I alude to above, a growing number of Catholic hospitals now also consider methodextrone use licit under specific circumstances.

We can’t really speak with certainty, because theologians and bioethicists disagree and the Church has not given specific guidance. What we can say with certainty is that the circumstances are tragic and those involved need our love and support.
 
Yes, my mother was already diagnosed with a mental illness but didn’t follow up with treatment, perhaps a trigger for the ectopic pregnancy? Also perhaps a reason why it was hush hush in my family, now she denies it ever happened.

I am very glad to hear that Rachel’s Vineyard is organizing to address miscarriage and I pray that it will grow to help women who have had ectopic pregnancies, as all our lives were devastated (in our little family) by this tragic occurence for her.

I continue with some progress in counseling for 2 abortions. EWTN is playing in the background and they are talking about the recent march. I wish I could help my mother. Her most currently expressed belief is that the Bible is “fictional literature.” But perhaps I can at least help myself as suggested by one poster, naming my brother or sister just as I named the children I lost.

My prayers go out to all of you who speak her of having suffered this tragedy. I understand that yes it is devastating.

Because of my mother’s mental illness the issue was always shrouded in secrecy, uncertainty, even unreality. I will return to check out some of the links.

Thank you and God bless.
 
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