Ecumenical Catholic Church

[CrimsonCatholic]

Hello All!

I have a friend who come from a baptist background, but not attend church.He is open about his Homosexual lifestyle, and knows how I feel about it. He has been asking a lot about what the Catholic Church teaches, and I have invited him to attend with me to a Mass. He has put it off many times, says he is not ready. Which I respect.

He emailed me a Church in Colorado that is part of the Ecumenical Catholic Church, which I have read about, and do not believe in a lot what they believe. i.e Woman priests, communion for all denominations, etc…

I told him I would go, because this might help him in his path to the Real CC, and real teachings of the CC.

I am going with him this Sunday, and I am a bit nervous, as they are expecting us, as he had emailed them about this Sunday.

Any advice? I am bit nervous about this.

 

[DavidFilmer]

I think you should go - it will enhance your credibility if he sees that you are willing to experience (but still reject) other religions.

Remember, this does not satisfy your ordinary Sunday Mass obligation. Maybe you should do Vigil.

And, although they believe in open communion, you (as a Catholic) are not permitted to receive.

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

Agreed.

I know I would not be taking communion from this Church, and I would still need make my Sunday obligation. I planned on going to my parish 7am Mass, and than attend this after at 10.

 

[1ke]

Any advice? I am bit nervous about this.

Do not attend this service. These are a mixture of priests who’ve married and left the Catholic Church, illicitly ordained individuals from various schismatic groups such as Old Catholic, and invalidly “ordained” women pretending to be priests. It in no way fulfills your Sunday obligation. You should not receive communion there, and frankly it gives scandal to attend.

It is not helpful to your friend to pretend this ecclesial community has validity in any way, shape or form, or to give it the appearance of legitimacy by attending it.

 

[Elizium23]

Do not attend. This is not some Protestant denomination whose split with the Church is 500 years old. This is an actively schismatic group who are trying to lure Catholics away from the true Church. This is worse than your friend staying Baptist, because this group pretends to hold the Catholic faith but distorts it for their own purpose. Not guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Barbkw]

He is open about his Homosexual lifestyle,…

As in what, he’s rejecting chastity and Sacred Scripture concerning unnatural sexual acts?

From the The Ecumenical Catholic Church website at ecchurch.org/marriage.htm

The Ecumenical Catholic Church Speaks in Favor of Same-Sex Marriage

Since its beginning in 1985, the Ecumenical Catholic Church has understood that gay, lesbian, and heterosexual marriages between two Christians are sacramentally equivalent. Our canon law forbids distinction between these various forms of marriage, and the wedding liturgy is the same whether the marriage is between two men, two women, or a man and a woman.

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

As in what, he’s rejecting chastity and Sacred Scripture concerning unnatural sexual acts?

From the The Ecumenical Catholic Church website at ecchurch.org/marriage.htm

The interesting part is, he knows this is against scripture, but feels that he was born that way, and God knows and loves him the way he is.

This is pretty much what I have gotten from him. I try to be sensitive as always on that subject, but I have made it known the disagreements I have with that ideology.

This another issue I have with the ECC.

 

[Barbkw]

As Pope Benedict wrote, the personal orientation toward SSA is not a sin, however SSA sexual acts are sinful.

Have you read what the Ecumenical Catholic Church says about SSA sexual acts and about the Catholic Church on their website? They go into great detail rewriting Sacred Scripture toward the acceptance of “Adam and Steve” and they also blast the Catholic Church.

ecchurch.org/marriage.htm

Complementarity and “Natural Law”

While the Protestant fundamentalists tend to cite the Bible, the Roman Catholic Church cites a very bizarre and difficult-to-understand concept called “natural law.”

Misinterpreting Scripture is at least rather easy to follow.

The natural law concept is so foreign to modern reality that it is confusing seems to appear out of nowhere.

This concept is the reason the Roman church has hang-ups about issues such as birth control that seem to come out of nowhere (since the Bible doesn’t discuss that issue at all and there is no apparent logic to call it immoral).

“Natural law” has nothing to do with nature as we know it. It is not the same, for example, as the laws of physics, which certainly are natural.

Saying that homosexuality or gay marriage violate “natural law” is not the same thing as saying it doesn’t occur in nature. This is unfortunate, because there are so many examples of homosexual behavior among animals that such a statement would be easy to refute.

“Natural law” is based on medieval concepts.

It is the same type of argument that enabled the Vatican to argue against Galileo when he said the earth revolved around the sun, and not vice versa.

Of course Galileo was right, and the heliocentricity of the solar system is a fact, whether the Church or Galileo or anyone else acknowledged it. But “natural law” said otherwise because God, after all, had become incarnate on the earth and not the sun.

It is just a system that confuses theology with science and blends them in a very destructive manner. It is difficult to understand why the Roman church even holds on to any aspect of this concept. Nonetheless, it does, and, as it did with Galileo, it holds back truth and science in the process.

It is from “natural law” that the concept of “complementarity” comes. This idea holds that unity can only be achieved when male and female come together. This sounds much more like the androgyne of ancient Greek paganism than it does Christianity.

The argument is that only different-sex marriage is capable of achieving this complementarity. We would tend to agree that a certain “complementarity” is one of the charms and wonders of marriage – one of the reasons why marriage enables two people to do more together than they could do apart. The problem with the “natural law” argument is the assumption that this complementarity is sexual in nature.

The value of marriage is not in blending some strange cosmic forces that appear as “male” and “female.”

The value of marriage is that two people balance each other.

It would seem logical that emotional complementarity would be a far more important parameter of a truly good marriage than would simply that one partner be male and the other be female. Except for giving birth to children, that seems irrelevant.

But herein lies one of the problems. There is an assumption in “natural law” that marriage is about raising children.

Again, we must not get confused into thinking this means that marriage is the natural way to raise children.

Clearly that is not the case because no animal species other than Homo sapiens raises children through marriage. (And not all species even use heterosexuality to procreate. There is a species of lizard with only females, and snails are both male and female and any two can fertilize each other.)

It is hard to precisely refute the “natural law” arguments because in order to do so you have to understand them. This is a virtually impossible task for anyone trained in the modern scientific approach. On the other hand, a simple comparison may help:

If you don’t believe that artificial birth control is immoral, then don’t let the Vatican use the same twisted logic against gay marriage.

 

[StevieD]

Your friend is seeking approval from ‘Catholics’ for his lifestyle and he will certainly receive this from the ECC. It is a dangerous place for him (or anyone in his situation) to be for this very reason. If I were you, I would not attend and I would beg him not to do so either. He should be regularly exposed to the graces flowing in an authentic Mass and from your prayers and sacrifices for him.

This link telling the story of a homosexual Catholic might be of interest to yourself and to him:

christianorder.com/features/features_2011/features_jan11.html

 

[tafan]

I think you should go - it will enhance your credibility if he sees that you are willing to experience (but still reject) other religions.

Remember, this does not satisfy your ordinary Sunday Mass obligation. Maybe you should do Vigil.

And, although they believe in open communion, you (as a Catholic) are not permitted to receive.

I disagree, with the first statement. You should not attend. It would be worse than attending a protestant service, as there is no pretending that is Catholic and therefore not as much scandal involved. I also do not see how this will help him on his path the the Catholic Church. If it will, he can go by himself, but you should make it clear to him, that place is a great scandal and as such, you cannot go through its doors.

I see little value in him seeing you as willing to experience another religion, if you know you are going to reject it ahead of time. Your friend is likely smart enough to where you can’t play the game of pretending to be open when you are not.

 

[PJM]

=CrimsonCatholic;7728612]Hello All!

I have a friend who come from a baptist background, but not attend church.He is open about his Homosexual lifestyle, and knows how I feel about it. He has been asking a lot about what the Catholic Church teaches, and I have invited him to attend with me to a Mass. He has put it off many times, says he is not ready. Which I respect.

He emailed me a Church in Colorado that is part of the Ecumenical Catholic Church, which I have read about, and do not believe in a lot what they believe. i.e Woman priests, communion for all denominations, etc…

I told him I would go, because this might help him in his path to the Real CC, and real teachings of the CC.

I am going with him this Sunday, and I am a bit nervous, as they are expecting us, as he had emailed them about this Sunday.

Any advice? I am bit nervous about this.

My dear friend in Christ;

In a VERY kind and gentle way you ought to make two points clear to your friend:

1. All who call themselves catholic are not CATHOLIC! So care is to taken to stick with what is the Roman Catholic Church or one of its 23 brances. I’d even leave out the brances for the sake of immediate clarity.
2. Religions; all of them have or should have a single goal: Helping one to get to heaven as heaven and hell are very real. What we CHOOSE to beleive is of great consequence but of little real value. What is true and Good and right, remain so even if not believed; or not accepted or not practiced. Either God is in charge or we are free to do anything WE CHOOSE… But there will be a Price to Pay; either in our current lives or for eternity.

So using your own words and a BIG SIMILE make these points to him. If you have additional questions; then PM me…

God Bless, Pat
PJM

 

[Third_Day]

I am going with him this Sunday, and I am a bit nervous, as they are expecting us, as he had emailed them about this Sunday.

Any advice? I am bit nervous about this.

I would go on one condition. He must contact the:

National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality
narth.com/

And
Couragerc
couragerc.net/

 

[Dale_M]

I would go on one condition. He must contact the:

National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality
narth.com/

And
Couragerc
couragerc.net/

I think that is a poor bargain, for both CrimsonCatholic and his friend.

As others have mentioned, the ECC is not the Catholic Church. It is a Protestant denomination which borrows the forms of the Catholic Church to appear more legitimate.

And I wouldn’t refer anyone to the witch doctors at NARTH.

Courage, on the other hand, is a fine apostolate. However, I wonder if that is a good resource for someone who is not ready to be celibate.

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

Thank you all for your help, and advice.

I have decided not to go. I pointed out all the issues I have with the ECC, and how I think it would give a false sense on what Catholicism really is. The ECC is a heresy, and I really did feel uncomfortable going, but I do feel I made the right choice.

I told my friend how I felt, and that I would really rather attend a baptist Service than Church that calls them self Catholic, but does the opposite of what the Church actually teaches.

I told my friend, that if is truly interested in the Catholic Church, than he can always come with me to my parish, that truly is in communion with the Church and the Bishop of Rome.

Again thank you to all the responses, they really helped a lot, and put things into perspective.

 

[dsmantz]

Funny, I would’ve gone. At the very least, to understand what’s going on (in person, not online), so that you would be better able to discuss the situation with your friend. I can have all the answers in theory, but if I don’t have them in practice, I’ll never get out of my armchair.

As upsetting as these services are, you not only have the ability, but the responsibility be a light in the world of those who are lost. To find any reason not to go is nothing but an excuse to remain comfortable. I’ve got news for you, Christ calls you to be uncomfortable.

St. Paul, after being beaten and sitting in prison writing his epistles, I’m sure was not comfortable. And did he not enter in to the Jewish synagogues, as well as Greek, Roman, and many other religious services to turn others to Christ?

 

[1ke]

Thank you all for your help, and advice.

I have decided not to go. I pointed out all the issues I have with the ECC, and how I think it would give a false sense on what Catholicism really is. The ECC is a heresy, and I really did feel uncomfortable going, but I do feel I made the right choice.

I told my friend how I felt, and that I would really rather attend a baptist Service than Church that calls them self Catholic, but does the opposite of what the Church actually teaches.

I told my friend, that if is truly interested in the Catholic Church, than he can always come with me to my parish, that truly is in communion with the Church and the Bishop of Rome.

Again thank you to all the responses, they really helped a lot, and put things into perspective.

I think this is a really good approach.

In evangelizing others, we need to put honesty and integrity in the forefront. If the other person does not appreciate those qualities and respect them, then it is likely that the evangelization effort wouldn’t get very far anyway. Hopefully this won’t be the case with your friend and he will respond positively to your upfront assessment of the situation.

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

Funny, I would’ve gone. At the very least, to understand what’s going on (in person, not online), so that you would be better able to discuss the situation with your friend. I can have all the answers in theory, but if I don’t have them in practice, I’ll never get out of my armchair.

As upsetting as these services are, you not only have the ability, but the responsibility be a light in the world of those who are lost. To find any reason not to go is nothing but an excuse to remain comfortable. I’ve got news for you, Christ calls you to be uncomfortable.

St. Paul, after being beaten and sitting in prison writing his epistles, I’m sure was not comfortable. And did he not enter in to the Jewish synagogues, as well as Greek, Roman, and many other religious services to turn others to Christ?

True, I understand what you are saying here, but I am really not going to learn anything from the ECC, than I need to, and I am not going to to this Church for me, but in the hope of showing my friend the beauty of Catholicism. The more I learned about the ECC, I realized, this was not the place to go, not even to start out slowly.

I have gone with a friend to a Kingdom Hall, he really wanted to show me his faith. So I did go, but when we left, I asked if he would come with me to my Church, and he declined.

I think there are other ways of evangelizing other than attending the ECC, though I know it was an opportunity at that, but there is an Alternative than going. I think I am doing this in the best interest for him, I don’t want him to get a sense that the ECC is really Catholic, because its far from.

I think the best opportunity for him to learn what the Church is, is actually attending a real mass by real priest.

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

I think this is a really good approach.

In evangelizing others, we need to put honesty and integrity in the forefront. If the other person does not appreciate those qualities and respect them, then it is likely that the evangelization effort wouldn’t get very far anyway. Hopefully this won’t be the case with your friend and he will respond positively to your upfront assessment of the situation.

I think this is for the better and its better than he see’s a real mass by real priests by the real Catholic Church. From there, we can start making process, but at least we started in the right direction.