Ecumenical complacency? (Re: Eastern Orthodox)

[Peter_J]

Hi all,

This thread is to respond to something sola_scriptura said in post #521 of the thread “How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?” (If you’re wondering why I didn’t just respond on that thread … well, just chalk it up to my eccentric nature. freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky060.gif)

I give the EOC much respect though – they haven’t gone the way or Rome & they’re fine by me.

No offense (I hope) but this statement sounds to me like a sort of “ecumenical complacency”.

I mean, how can you say that the Eastern Orthodox Church is ‘fine by you’ when what you believe is really nothing like what they believe? (Indeed, unless I’m very much mistaken, the Orthodox actually have a higher opinion of Roman Catholicism than they do of Protestantism.) Clearly if Orthodoxy is “fine” then Protestantism isn’t.

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. I reminded of Dr. Scott Hahn, before his conversion to Roman Catholicism. As he himself says in telling his conversion story

…
I still hoped to find that one fatal flaw that would keep me from “swimming the Tiber”, as we say, or from “pope-ing”.

So I started looking into Orthodoxy.
…

Of course you have to read more than that small quote to get a full sense of it, but basically what I’m getting at is that he only bothered looking into Eastern Orthodoxy once his original assumption – that Protestantism is better than Catholicism – was shown to be false.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Hi all,

This thread is to respond to something sola_scriptura said in post #521 of the thread “How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?” (If you’re wondering why I didn’t just respond on that thread … well, just chalk it up to my eccentric nature. freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky060.gif)

No offense (I hope) but this statement sounds to me like a sort of “ecumenical complacency”.

I mean, how can you say that the Eastern Orthodox Church is ‘fine by you’ when what you believe is really nothing like what they believe? (Indeed, unless I’m very much mistaken, the Orthodox actually have a higher opinion of Roman Catholicism than they do of Protestantism.) Clearly if Orthodoxy is “fine” then Protestantism isn’t.

you’re right it was an off the cuff statement – I also disagree with many of their practices & popular beliefs; however, I do appreciate that they haven’t gone beyond the ecumenical councils in their official (i.e. what they would consider infallible teachings) doctrine.

Beyond that I do understand that they will find more in common with Rome than Protestantism (which is fine – we look to neither for affirmation of our faith and practices).

 

[sola_scriptura]

P.S. I reminded of Dr. Scott Hahn, before his conversion to Roman Catholicism. As he himself says in telling his conversion story

Of course you have to read more than that small quote to get a full sense of it, but basically what I’m getting at is that he only bothered looking into Eastern Orthodoxy once his original assumption – that Protestantism is better than Catholicism – was shown to be false.

I disagree with Hahn & have heard him speak many times. At this point he’s a Catholic. His peeve was contraception – which is hardly a reason to leave the Presbyterian Church. Although I will say the PCA (which he was a member of) is a typically Calvinist denomination (and doesn’t allot must wiggle room for theological freedom), unlike the EPC (which I am a member of).

I for example reject the idea of predestination to damnation & hold to premillennialism (the idea that the thousand year kingdom of Christ has not occurred yet). The former view is rejected by the PCA and the latter is rejected by the RCC, and Lutheran Churches (notwithstanding it was the view held by the earliest Christians – although that fact in itself does not form the basis for my views).

I enjoy studying theology & I love the fresh perspectives offered by writers such as Bishop N.T. Wright (even though I don’t always agree). However, I still appreciate the writings of the reformers and even the Apostolic Fathers.

For me it’s simply important that a church preach confidence in our election. Moreover, fellowship is also important to me (liturgy not so much – though I appreciate a good choir).

 

[Sailka]

:juggle:

I disagree with Hahn & have heard him speak many times. At this point he’s a Catholic. His peeve was contraception – which is hardly a reason to leave the Presbyterian Church. Although I will say the PCA (which he was a member of) is a typically Calvinist denomination (and doesn’t allot must wiggle room for theological freedom), unlike the EPC (which I am a member of).

I for example reject the idea of predestination to damnation & hold to premillennialism (the idea that the thousand year kingdom of Christ has not occurred yet). The former view is rejected by the PCA and the latter is rejected by the RCC, and Lutheran Churches (notwithstanding it was the view held by the earliest Christians – although that fact in itself does not form the basis for my views).

I enjoy studying theology & I love the fresh perspectives offered by writers such as Bishop N.T. Wright (even though I don’t always agree). However, I still appreciate the writings of the reformers and even the Apostolic Fathers.

For me it’s simply important that a church preach confidence in our election. Moreover, fellowship is also important to me (liturgy not so much – though I appreciate a good choir).

                                                                                           (1) brother in Christ Peter J (# 1)  how in the world do you Yo-Yo  sideways?     Carefully?

(2) brother Sola, Scott Hahn’s main concern was no authority or decision maker for the thousands of opinions about very many Bible verses. What is your opinon re understanding them? How can the Holy Spirit inspire vastly different understandings of the same verse?

(3) brother Sola, what is your understanding of Our Lord telling the Apostles at Last Supper to “do This in Memory of Me”, if you do not believe in liturgy?

                                                                                           Live in Jesus, brothers.                      Tony                                 :tiphat: :whistle:

 

[Psalter]

For me it’s simply important that a church preach confidence in our election. Moreover, fellowship is also important to me (liturgy not so much – though I appreciate a good choir).

Fellowship has its place; but the liturgy is strictly the worship of God. It sounds like you are saying that socializing is more important to you than worshiping God.

 

[grandfather]

I disagree with Hahn & have heard him speak many times. At this point he’s a Catholic. His peeve was contraception – which is hardly a reason to leave the Presbyterian Church. Although I will say the PCA (which he was a member of) is a typically Calvinist denomination (and doesn’t allot must wiggle room for theological freedom), unlike the EPC (which I am a member of).

I for example reject the idea of predestination to damnation & hold to premillennialism (the idea that the thousand year kingdom of Christ has not occurred yet). The former view is rejected by the PCA and the latter is rejected by the RCC, and Lutheran Churches (notwithstanding it was the view held by the earliest Christians – although that fact in itself does not form the basis for my views).

I enjoy studying theology & I love the fresh perspectives offered by writers such as Bishop N.T. Wright (even though I don’t always agree). However, I still appreciate the writings of the reformers and even the Apostolic Fathers.

For me it’s simply important that a church preach confidence in our election. Moreover, fellowship is also important to me (liturgy not so much – though I appreciate a good choir).

With whom are you one?

It sounds like you are piecing together your own religion for yourself. Take a little of this you like and a little of that from so and so, but not all, and create a personal set of beliefs. Wright is right, but a little wrong. Fellowship, hanging out with other students of theology who make up their own minds on their own personal beliefs is pleasant as long as we all tell ourselves we are elected. Church is kind of clubby a good place to hang out and enjoy the choir.

I think you unfairly characterize Hahn. His realization that contraception is immoral was a hole in the dike, only the beginning of his conversion. The rest came tumbling down and he desparately tried to find a Catholic dogma he could prove false, because he did not want to become Catholic. Once he could not defend the solas the cornerstones were removed. Its a familiar pattern.

 

[sola_scriptura]

With whom are you one?

It sounds like you are piecing together your own religion for yourself. Take a little of this you like and a little of that from so and so, but not all, and create a personal set of beliefs. Wright is right, but a little wrong. Fellowship, hanging out with other students of theology who make up their own minds on their own personal beliefs is pleasant as long as we all tell ourselves we are elected. Church is kind of clubby a good place to hang out and enjoy the choir.

I think you unfairly characterize Hahn. His realization that contraception is immoral was a hole in the dike, only the beginning of his conversion. The rest came tumbling down and he desparately tried to find a Catholic dogma he could prove false, because he did not want to become Catholic. Once he could not defend the solas the cornerstones were removed. Its a familiar pattern.

Now he’s venerating statutes. I remain Presbyterian – and I will never leave the Church of God. I adhere to its creeds – but yes I study theology & I have a brain. When I read no graven images I understand no means NO! When I read ONE mediator I understand one doesn’t mean two or ten thousand (or how ever many saints you have). When I see people venerate dead bodies encased in glass tombs – yes I think it’s sheer heresy.

So best of luck to you and Mr. Hahn & sorry – but I will never swim with you in the Tiber.

 

[jimmy]

you’re right it was an off the cuff statement – I also disagree with many of their practices & popular beliefs; however, I do appreciate that they haven’t gone beyond the ecumenical councils in their official (i.e. what they would consider infallible teachings) doctrine.

Beyond that I do understand that they will find more in common with Rome than Protestantism (which is fine – we look to neither for affirmation of our faith and practices).

They don’t say that only what is contained in the councils is official belief. The seven councils did not speak of the essence/energy distinction but that is official belief in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The seven councils did not speak of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist but that is official EO teaching. These are things that are uncompromisable if you are an EO Christian. They never said that the seven councils contained all dogmas of the Church. Those seven councils simply represent the definitions of the Church in response to heresies. In the west though there have been many other heresies like those of protestants which had to be condemned. And so the west has gone beyond seven councils and includes another 14.

 

[sola_scriptura]

They don’t say that only what is contained in the councils is official belief. The seven councils did not speak of the essence/energy distinction but that is official belief in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The seven councils did not speak of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist but that is official EO teaching. These are things that are uncompromisable if you are an EO Christian. They never said that the seven councils contained all dogmas of the Church. Those seven councils simply represent the definitions of the Church in response to heresies. In the west though there have been many other heresies like those of protestants which had to be condemned. And so the west has gone beyond seven councils and includes another 14.

Indeed – and we protestants have worked most of those heresies out of Christianity (though we have some heretics as well – but that’s OK because the elect will always be preserved)

 

[mark_a]

Hi all,

This thread is to respond to something sola_scriptura said in post #521 of the thread “How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?” (If you’re wondering why I didn’t just respond on that thread … well, just chalk it up to my eccentric nature. freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky060.gif)

No offense (I hope) but this statement sounds to me like a sort of “ecumenical complacency”.

I mean, how can you say that the Eastern Orthodox Church is ‘fine by you’ when what you believe is really nothing like what they believe? (Indeed, unless I’m very much mistaken, the Orthodox actually have a higher opinion of Roman Catholicism than they do of Protestantism.) Clearly if Orthodoxy is “fine” then Protestantism isn’t.

Here’s a thread that touches on the subject of Evangelicals who head East.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=124925

And here’s the This Rock Article its about: catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9504fea1.asp

 

[grandfather]

Now he’s venerating statutes. I remain Presbyterian – and I will never leave the Church of God. I adhere to its creeds – but yes I study theology & I have a brain. When I read no graven images I understand no means NO! When I read ONE mediator I understand one doesn’t mean two or ten thousand (or how ever many saints you have). When I see people venerate dead bodies encased in glass tombs – yes I think it’s sheer heresy.

So best of luck to you and Mr. Hahn & sorry – but I will never swim with you in the Tiber.

Sola - Alone,

Do you have any photos of your family, maybe a grandparent who passed on, that reminds you of the person? When you look at a photo of someone does it bring them to mind? Do you have maybe a class picture or a wedding picture? No graven images means NO, right?

Do you or in your Church with the nice choir, do people ever ask for prayers? Do you join together in prayer for one another? You could go directly to Christ your mediator, alone, but do you ever join together in supplication? If you do does that mean you have more than one mediator. Check out the imagery in Revelations of the four and tweny elders burning incense before the throne of God. I think it says the incense is the prayers of the saints. Hmm, so the prayers of the saints are being offered by someone in between the person who prays and God. There is someone in between, in media, God and the person praying. Interesting imagery.

Is there one Church or ten thousand?

It is somewhat of a mystery that a body of a martyr could be incorrupt since the year 250 and smell like fresh flowers. Anyway, do you keep any relics? Do you keep maybe a grandmother’s wedding ring, or dress, or something of that sort with sentimental value? Maybe you might keep somewhere an urn of ashes? I know some people scatter them, but others keep them in cemeteries or on mantels.

May god always bless you.

 

[East_and_West]

I disagree with Hahn & have heard him speak many times. At this point he’s a Catholic. His peeve was contraception – which is hardly a reason to leave the Presbyterian Church. Although I will say the PCA (which he was a member of) is a typically Calvinist denomination (and doesn’t allot must wiggle room for theological freedom), unlike the EPC (which I am a member of).

If you have listened to Dr. Hahn, then you know that contraception is not the only reason he left his denomination.

 

[sola_scriptura]

If you have listened to Dr. Hahn, then you know that contraception is not the only reason he left his denomination.

of course not – it’s what started him thinking along those lines though. As I’ve said, I’m a fairly dogmatic protestant so IMO contraception is sinful. If we are to agree that God commanded us to be fruitful and multiply, that fornication (sex outside of marriage) is sinful, and lustful thoughts are sinful then the only logical conclusion is that use of contraceptives must be sinful (why else would we use them accept not to be fruitful and multiply or to fornicate)? So the idea that contraceptive use itself is not discussed in scripture is irrelevant; we have more than enough to guide us on this matter.

Sexual urges is a weakness of the flesh though. It takes time and prayer to overcome them. I’m certainly far from perfect when it comes to sinning – but the more I grow in Christ the more God moves me to walk in His statutes. Frankly, the more I focus on God the more alien sin becomes to me. Golly, I don’t even drink (I think I’ve become an official holy roller)

 

[Sailka]

Sexual urges is a weakness of the flesh though. It takes time and prayer to overcome them. I’m certainly far from perfect when it comes to sinning – but the more I grow in Christ the more God moves me to walk in His statutes. Frankly, the more I focus on God the more alien sin becomes to me. Golly, I don’t even drink (I think I’ve become an official holy roller)

                                                                                           Well said, brother!  The more we live the Lord's way, the less we live  our own stupid selfish  trouble-prone ways.  Is  why our Lord set up His Church.  Luckily, we Catholics are very seven day a week  Mass, other devotions.        Rituals go back Thousands of years,   and are big aid in loving  the Lord more.  LOT  of Holy Spirit, results in bubbly Spirits unnecessary.    Never been drunk either.  Lord makes us Much  stronger, not needing earthly   phony strengthenings.                                                               Live in  Jesus!        :bowdown2: 
                            Tony 
                                                                                           PS:  We never worship  statues, or Popes, or anything Earthly.  They are just inspirations,   better than our  earthly   ones  like home run hitters, even

 

[Peter_J]

I disagree with Hahn & have heard him speak many times. At this point he’s a Catholic. His peeve was contraception – which is hardly a reason to leave the Presbyterian Church. Although I will say the PCA (which he was a member of) is a typically Calvinist denomination (and doesn’t allot must wiggle room for theological freedom), unlike the EPC (which I am a member of).

of course not – it’s what started him thinking along those lines though.

Yes, I think that’s a better way to put it.

Returning to my original point, ecumenical complacency vis-à-vis the Eastern Orthodox, I should clarify that I think this is a very common attitude among Protestants. (Your statement in the other thread only made me think of it – I hope it doesn’t seem like I started this thread just to pick on you. )

Perhaps a good analogy to explain it, is people who don’t identify themselves as Christians or go to church, but who “admire” people who do. “That’s great for you, but it just isn’t for me.” In other words “There can’t be any problem with my not being Christian and not going to church, since I myself don’t have a problem with Christians being Christians and going to church.”

 

[grandfather]

of course not – it’s what started him thinking along those lines though. As I’ve said, I’m a fairly dogmatic protestant so IMO contraception is sinful. If we are to agree that God commanded us to be fruitful and multiply, that fornication (sex outside of marriage) is sinful,

How are Chrisitians supposed to know what is moral and what is not? Why do the vast majority of Protestants disagree with you on contraception? You have made up your mind on this issue having thought about it. How do you know you and the pope are right about it and the majority of Protestants are wrong?

If we are going to take each moral issue and decide for ourselves what is right or wrong, how do we know we will get it right? What are the consequences of being wrong? Please think about that for a bit.

God does not leave us with a Bible and our wits to work through all moral issues and hold us accountable to be right. He leads us in His Church. We do not figure out the moral law by power of human intellect. It is revealed. Moses came down from the mountain. God is the giver. Each person does not decide for himself on which of the commandments he thinks is right or wrong.

 

[Sailka]

Indeed – and we protestants have worked most of those heresies out of Christianity (though we have some heretics as well – but that’s OK because the elect will always be preserved)

Have that in Writing, sir, Signed/sealed by the Lord? The elect will always be preserved? Didn’t know the Lord favored some, besides his Followers, who have Life in his Flesh. Live in Jesus Tony

 

[sola_scriptura]

How are Chrisitians supposed to know what is moral and what is not? Why do the vast majority of Protestants disagree with you on contraception? You have made up your mind on this issue having thought about it. How do you know you and the pope are right about it and the majority of Protestants are wrong?

Liberal protestant denominations do openly teach contraception is acceptable. However, conservative protestant denominations hold a different (although I concede inconsistent) view regarding this practice.

If we are going to take each moral issue and decide for ourselves what is right or wrong, how do we know we will get it right? What are the consequences of being wrong? Please think about that for a bit.

Many observant Catholics hold a far looser view toward alcohol consumption as compared to many (particularly conservative) protestants (I’ve known of some priests who were by any objective standard drunkards).

God does not leave us with a Bible and our wits to work through all moral issues and hold us accountable to be right. He leads us in His Church. We do not figure out the moral law by power of human intellect. It is revealed. Moses came down from the mountain. God is the giver. Each person does not decide for himself on which of the commandments he thinks is right or wrong.

I agree – however, God’s laws are not ambiguous or open to subjective interpretation. For example I would say that:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

means:

1. Fornication
2. Idolatry
3. Adultery
4. being an effeminate (having feminine qualities untypical of a man, or unbecoming delicacy or over-refinement)
5. Homosexuality
6. Thievery
7. Covetousness
8. being a drunkard
9. being a swindler
10. being a reviler (to constantly use abusive language)

are sinful.

With regard to contraception – obviously the chief verse used for this is:

Then Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother (Genesis 38:8-9).

Obviously latex condoms were not available to Onan – so he pulled out prior to ejaculation.

In two speeches by Pope Pius XII in 1951 the “rhythm method” (which is exactly what Onan did) was formerly accepted into Catholic teaching.

Someone would have to explain to me how the rhythm method differs from the use of contraceptive devices – but I’m sure the church has some creative explanation for this?

Of course the truth is there is no difference – both methods endorse family planning. Under both the rhythm method or more effective contraceptive use the couple is having sex with an intent not to procreate. Hence under the very same justification the RCC uses for prohibiting contraception its own prescribed rhythm method must also fail.

I believe the rhythm method and contraception are equally sinful – I’m looking forward to the creative spin telling me why I’m wrong.

The EOC view has also changed (although perhaps not officially since they do not view sacred magisterium as an appropriate way to work through matters of doctrine).

I note the protestant reformers were all dogmatically against the use of contraception (in every form) and did not depart from the view of Rome (the reformation was not about redefining sin – to the contrary).

 

[BlestOne]

This topic has always interested me as well. The hatred of Catholicism and the acceptance of Orthodoxy… when really there are very few things that separate the two. It is like a racial prejudice… Anyway, I wanted to comment on a few things…

First… even if a person doesn’t believe in contraception, being part of an ecclesiastical community that does is flawed. Morally our faith should represent the ideal…something to strive for not a bunch of rules you can believe if you want and toss aside if you don’t. I heard a famous person say this once: “If it isn’t difficult to uphold the precepts of your church, you are in the wrong church.” Church is supposed to present the holy, the ideal, that we might conform ourselves to it, not conform a Church to our ideals… that is where people go wrong. If it was easy to be holy, what value would there be in being holy?

Second…God sent his Son to establish a Church not drop off a book. If he meant for us to only need a book, why does it take 2 to make a baby or a community to raise a child… come on, we were made to have to be with others. If God just wanted to give us the Bible, it would have dropped from the sky, not be written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. In the Bible it tells us that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of TRUTH not the BIBLE… So Jesus came and established a Church… The Catholic Church established the BIBLE… how about that… the people who hate us claim our book is the sole depository of Truth… wow!

The Orthodox are like 99.9% in accordance with the beliefs of Catholicism… or vice versa…. I would say that if your beliefs were based on anything other than prejudice, Protestants would feel the same about both… don’t ya think?