Ecumenical Councils and Eastern Catholics

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Now, I would like to expose another of your cut-and-paste hackjobs. In your quote from the Explanatory Note, you provide the following excerpt “…As Supreme Pastor of the Church, the Supreme Pontiff can always exercise his power at will, as his very office demands.” Readers should be aware that two sentences before this excerpt, the Explanatory Note affirms that this “at will” power is restricted in its scope “in order to meet the changing needs of the Church in the course of time.” It is no wonder that our SSPX brother intentionally left it out of his cut-and-paste hackjob. This clause utterly refutes his opposition to the Truth that the Pope’ has no authority beyond that which is necessary for the good of the Church.

To conclude, permit me to offer some contextual excerpts from the Explanatory Note that utterly refutes our SSPX brother’s erroneous Absolutist Petrine misinterpretations:

Hence in reply to Modus 12 it is explicitly asserted of the Twelve that the Lord established them "in the manner of a college or a stable group."
Accoding to the Council, Christ Himself is the originator of the collegial nature of Church authority.

Therefore, it is significantly stated that hierarchical communion is required with the head of the Church and its members. Communion is an idea which was held in high honor by the ancient Church (as it is today, especially in the East). It is understood, however, not of a certain vague feeling, but of an organic reality which demands a juridical form, and is simultaneously animated by charity.
Enough of this Absolutist Petrine pretense that the Pope can be separated from the College. The collegial nature of the Church is part of its ontological make-up, which the Absolutist Petrine view denies.

The phrase is “with the consent of its head;” for there should be no thought of a dependence on some outside person. The word “consent,” on the contrary recalls the communion existing between head and members.
Earlier in this thread, I pointed out that the first sentence of this excerpt is meant to affirm that the Pope is a member of the College, not some authority or power outside of it. Another Absolutist Petrine advocate - Steveb - responded that was not the reason, but that the statement only meant that no outside authority has a say in the College. True to the non-contextual misinterpretations of the Absolutist Petrine view, he completely neglected the very next sentence, which confirms exactly what I stated, refuting his own misinterpretation.

This hierarchical communion of all the bishops with the Supreme Pontiff is undoubtedly a recurring feature of Tradition.
This is the very last, concluding sentence of the Explanatory Note. It refutes once and for all the Absolutist Petrine pretensions that deny the collegial nature of the Church’s hierarchy, affirming that collegiality is the reality enshrined in the Tradition of the Church.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Well done Marduk :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Your contributions to the unity of the Petrine and Episcopal offices within the Church, are the best that I have ever seen. I must confess that I used to fit into the “Absolutist” camp but your commentaries have changed my views for the better. The reasoning you employ is grounded in both Scripture and Tradition, but most of all, it reconciles the practical operation of Church governance as Christ established it.
 
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Ahhh. Another of your cut-and-paste hack jobs of statements wrenched out of context. You utterly twist the meaning of the Explanatory Note in order to support your error that the Pope can act separated from the College.

. It’s very purpose was diametrically opposed to your Absolutist Petrine other-worldly misinterpretation that the Pope can be separated from the College. Note #1 begins, accordingly, with the words, “The word College is not taken in the strictly juridical sense…” This first sentence sets the proper context, tone, and understanding of the Explanatory Note as devoted to the proper understanding of the concept of Collegiality. Note #2 explains (1) how a man becomes a member of this College of bishops and (2) the princple of hierarchical communion. Note #3 contains the text that you wrenched out of context (to be explained shortly). Finally, Note #4 gives a greater clarification of the College - it affirms the even though the College does not always function as such, it is ALWAYS in existence. The concluding paragraph reaffirms the very purpose of the Explanatory Note: “Clearly it is the connection of bishops with their head that is in question THROUGHOUT and not the activity of bishops independently of the Pope.”

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I’ve gone through this thread and both times anyone has challenged your point of view you’ve resorted to Ad Hominem attacks. First Trentcath who it appears we wont be hearing from anymore and then Steve B who was so wound up he says he’s added you to his ignore list. It seems that you simply can’t stop yourself from insulting others, something that appears to be the common behavior of many on this thread, indeed I note with some amusement what TrentCath said regarding the fact that for once the Traditionalist Catholic was not the first to accuse someone of heresy.

Anytime anyone has presented evidence you’ve either ignored it (as in the case of TrentCath) or simply done the exact same thing you’ve accused them of doing ‘a cut and paste job’. A classic case of this is your so called refutation of TrentCath’s quote from Vatican II.

You claim that the tone of the note is set by the phrase ‘“College” is not understood in a strictly juridical sense’ but omit the rest of the sentence namely ‘…** that is as a group of equals who entrust their power to their president, but as a stable group whose structure and authority must be learned from Revelation.**’ This making it clear that it is not a group of equals, which is how we would understand the term college.

You then appear to go on about a rant regarding the sentence '** In other words, it is not a distinction between the Roman Pontiff and the bishops taken collectively, but a distinction between the Roman Pontiff taken separately and the Roman Pontiff together with the bishops**. The whole Paragraph in fact says 'The College, which does not exist without the head, is said “to exist also as the subject of supreme and full power in the universal Church.” This must be admitted of necessity so that the fullness of power belonging to the Roman Pontiff is not called into question. For the College, always and of necessity, includes its head, because in the college he preserves unhindered his function as Christ’s Vicar and as Pastor of the universal Church. In other words, it is not a distinction between the Roman Pontiff and the bishops taken collectively, but a distinction between the Roman Pontiff taken separately and the Roman Pontiff together with the bishops. Since the Supreme Pontiff is head of the College, he alone is able to perform certain actions which are not at all within the competence of the bishops, e.g., convoking the College and directing it, approving norms of action, etc. Cf. Modus 81. It is up to the judgment of the Supreme Pontiff, to whose care Christ’s whole flock has been entrusted, to determine, according to the needs of the Church as they change over the course of centuries, the way in which this care may best be exercised-whether in a personal or a collegial way. The Roman Pontiff, taking account of the Church’s welfare, proceeds according to his own discretion in arranging, promoting and approving the exercise of collegial activity.

You will notice three things there:
First, whilst it states that the college cannot exist without its head, it does not state that the head cannot exist without the college.
Second, whilst it states that the college always includes its head, it does not state that the head always includes the college.
Third, it states that the Pope can either act separately from or together with the other bishops, frankly I cannot see a more obvious refutation of the idea that the Pope cannot act separately from the college. To which bishops is it referring if not to the college of bishops?
Fourth, it states that it is up to the Pope whether he should exercise his supreme power in a collegial or individual way according to the needs of the church and it is implied that it is up to him to determine the needs of the church.

Also having looked through the thread I can see that you have labelled those Latin Catholics that disagree with you as ‘Absolutist Petrine Advocates’, I suspect that you have not spent much time in the Traditionalist Catholicism section. If you had you would know that there are some Catholics who believe that the Pope can change or abrogate any laws he wants, whenever he wants, can change any traditions of the church whenever he wants and in short that the Pope can do no wrong and must be obeyed in everything without question. That is an ‘Absolutist Petrine Position’ not the position advocated by Steve B and TrentCath on this thread.
 
Dear brother DeAquin,
I’ve gone through this thread and both times anyone has challenged your point of view you’ve resorted to Ad Hominem attacks. First Trentcath who it appears we wont be hearing from anymore and then Steve B who was so wound up he says he’s added you to his ignore list. It seems that you simply can’t stop yourself from insulting others, something that appears to be the common behavior of many on this thread, indeed I note with some amusement what TrentCath said regarding the fact that for once the Traditionalist Catholic was not the first to accuse someone of heresy.
Permit me to offer a lesson in apologetics. If you want to refute someone, here is what you should do:

(1) Demonstrate that the other party has misinterpreted the source quotes he/she has given.
(2) Offer your own source quotes that support your own position.
(3) Stop repeating quotes that have already been refuted.
(4) If someone calls your position “unpatristic,” “illogical,” “cut-and-paste,” etc., don’t whine about it by simply claiming it is an “Ad Homimem” attack — instead, go about proving that such statements don’t apply to your position. Otherwise, you yourself fall into the fallacy of merely trying to appeal to emotion.
You claim that the tone of the note is set by the phrase ‘“College” is not understood in a strictly juridical sense’ but omit the rest of the sentence namely ‘…** that is as a group of equals who entrust their power to their president, but as a stable group whose structure and authority must be learned from Revelation.**’ This making it clear that it is not a group of equals, which is how we would understand the term college.
I see you share the same ignorance as our brothers TrentCath and Steveb about what the term “collegiality” means. Thereby, your supposed “context” is nothing more than a straw man. “Collegiality” does not pretend that the head is perfectly equal to all the other bishops individually. Though Collegiality admits the perfect equality of all bishops ontologically, it does not admit that the responsibility of each bishop for the Church at large to be perfectly equal. Head bishops definitely have different prerogatives and greater responsibilities than the average bishop. May I suggest you go learn about what “collegiality” actually means before joining the conversation.

Further, the point of my citing the first sentence is to prove that the purpose of the Explanatory Note is to explain the College and the concept of Collegiality (read more carefully, please). How does your supposed “context” disprove my point?

See #1 above on how to be a good apologist.
You then appear to go on about a rant regarding the sentence '** In other words, it is not a distinction between the Roman Pontiff and the bishops taken collectively, but a distinction between the Roman Pontiff taken separately and the Roman Pontiff together with the bishops**. The whole Paragraph in fact says
See #3 and #4 above on how to be a good apologist.
First, whilst it states that the college cannot exist without its head, it does not state that the head cannot exist without the college.
See #2 above on how to be a good apologist. Show us where the Explanatory Note states that “the head can exist without the college.” We’ll be waiting.
Second, whilst it states that the college always includes its head, it does not state that the head always includes the college.
Actually, it does. As I had explicitly quoted in the last section of my posts, a section that you have not addressed at all (see #1 on how to be a good apologist), the Council affirmed that it was Christ himself who established the collegial nature of Church authority. The head is ALWAYS part of the college, because that is how Christ made the Church. Secondly, you failed to address the fact that the Explanatory Note states that the College is ALWAYS in existence. What part of “ALWAYS” do you not understand?
Third, it states that the Pope can either act separately from or together with the other bishops, frankly I cannot see a more obvious refutation of the idea that the Pope cannot act separately from the college. To which bishops is it referring if not to the college of bishops?
No. Nowhere in the teaching or the Canons of the Church does it say that the Pope can act separately from the College. Perhaps the only place is this particular Explanatory Note, which I have already demonstrated has been grossly misinterpreted by Absolutist Petrine advocates. What the Teaching and Canons of the Church state is that the Pope can exercise supreme authority either personally or collegially. The error of Absolutist Petrine advocates is that they confuse the term “personally” with the terms “separately and unilaterally.” It’s the same way that Absolutist Petrine advocates confuse the term “supreme” with the term “absolute.” Our SSPX brother complained about the redefinition of terms in the Magisterial texts. He should really take care about that huge log in his own eye.

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Fourth, it states that it is up to the Pope whether he should exercise his supreme power in a collegial or individual way according to the needs of the church and it is implied that it is up to him to determine the needs of the church.
:rolleyes:

See #2 on how to be a good apologist. Don’t give me this “implied” nonsense. But that’s really the whole basis of the Absolutist Petrine error, is it not? Your position does not really exist in the Magisterial documents, but is merely extrapolated from it. In other words, you have this unpatristic preconceived notion of what the papacy is, you impose that on the Magisterial texts, and VIOLA!, you can pretend that your position is “supported” by the Magisterial texts…
Also having looked through the thread I can see that you have labelled those Latin Catholics that disagree with you as ‘Absolutist Petrine Advocates’, I suspect that you have not spent much time in the Traditionalist Catholicism section. If you had you would know that there are some Catholics who believe that the Pope can change or abrogate any laws he wants, whenever he wants, can change any traditions of the church whenever he wants and in short that the Pope can do no wrong and must be obeyed in everything without question. That is an ‘Absolutist Petrine Position’ not the position advocated by Steve B and TrentCath on this thread.
Steveb and TrentCath BOTH affirmed that (1) the Pope’s authority goes beyond the purpose for which Christ established the primacy, as defined by Vatican 1, and (2) the Pope’s authority is not constrained by considerations of what is good for the Church. That’s perfectly equivalent to the Absolutist Petrine pretense that the Pope can change or abrogate the laws of the Church on his whim and fancy. But that’s a good effort at sophism, brother.

Finally, please take note of #1 on how to be a good apologist. You have not even addressed most of the contextual quotes I provided that disprove the Absolutist Petrine position.

In conclusion, you have not demonstrated in the least that such terms as “illogical,” “unpatristic,” “cut-and-paste,” etc. do not apply to your Absolutist Petrine position. To repeat, stop whining “Ad Hominem” and simply address the issues.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Wow :eek:

Just joined this site, had a look through here and just wow… Traditional or just ‘normal’ catholics come on here to express a view that is after all the normative Catholic view and all hell breaks loose. :confused:
 
Wow :eek:

Just joined this site, had a look through here and just wow… Traditional or just ‘normal’ catholics come on here to express a view that is after all the normative Catholic view and all hell breaks loose. :confused:
A normative Catholic view? That would be a shame. I’m glad my journey to the Catholic Church came through a personal reading of source Magisterial documents. If I depended on your average “normal” Catholic to explain this matter to me, I may very well have never joined the Catholic Communion.

As it is, if it is true that the Absolutist Petrine view is the “normative” view in Catholicism,. all I can say is that it is not patristic nor faithful to the teaching of the Vatican Councils.

I am blessed to have met many Latin Catholics, several of them here in CAF, who do not believe that the Absolutist Petrine view is normative at all (at least not in their own experience). I believe these Latin Catholics are the ones who are truly “normal” and Traditional.👍

Blessings,
Marduk
 
A normative Catholic view? That would be a shame. I’m glad my journey to the Catholic Church came through a personal reading of source Magisterial documents. If I depended on your average “normal” Catholic to explain this matter to me, I may very well have never joined the Catholic Communion.

As it is, if it is true that the Absolutist Petrine view is the “normative” view in Catholicism,. all I can say is that it is not patristic nor faithful to the teaching of the Vatican Councils.

I am blessed to have met many Latin Catholics, several of them here in CAF, who do not believe that the Absolutist Petrine view is normative at all (at least not in their own experience). I believe these Latin Catholics are the ones who are truly “normal” and Traditional.👍

Blessings,
Marduk
We both know that ‘normative’ means normal or most common, and this view is amongst both the hirerarchy and the laity.

I was just surprised at how over the top the response was to someone expressing a normative view.
 
We both know that ‘normative’ means normal or most common, and this view is amongst both the hirerarchy and the laity.
Whose hierarchy? The SSPX and others who deride Vatican 2?🤷

It might interest you to know that the Document that garnered the most placet votes at Vatican 2 was the Decree on the Office of Bishop, which detailed most explicitly the collegial nature of Church authority.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Whose hierarchy? The SSPX and others who deride Vatican 2?🤷

It might interest you to know that the Document that garnered the most placet votes at Vatican 2 was the Decree on the Office of Bishop, which detailed most explicitly the collegial nature of Church authority.

Blessings,
Marduk
No The Pope and ‘The Holy Office’

Anyway I’m waiting for you to ‘debunk’ TrentCath’s authorities
 
No The Pope and ‘The Holy Office’

Anyway I’m waiting for you to ‘debunk’ TrentCath’s authorities
Well, his attempts to utilize V2 in support of his Absolutist Petrine errors has already been debunked. V1 can’t help him out either, since the Official Relatio refutes the Absolutist Petrine innovations.

I’ll get to his other sources when I have time for research. In the meantime, in one of my prior posts, I gave 6 points that had been claimed by TrentCath and asked where his sources support those points. Maybe you can help out in that regard.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Well, his attempts to utilize V2 in support of his Absolutist Petrine errors has already been debunked. V1 can’t help him out either, since the Official Relatio refutes the Absolutist Petrine innovations.

I’ll get to his other sources when I have time for research. In the meantime, in one of my prior posts, I gave 6 points that had been claimed by TrentCath and asked where his sources support those points. Maybe you can help out in that regard.

Blessings,
Marduk
Would you care to link me to the post? This is a pretty long thread…
 
We both know that ‘normative’ means normal or most common, and this view is amongst both the hirerarchy and the laity.

I was just surprised at how over the top the response was to someone expressing a normative view.
That’s not what “normative” means; the word means “of, relating to, or prescribing norms” (Webster’s 7th new collegiate dictionary). The first definition of “norm” given is “an authoritative standard”; while definition 3b is “a pattern or trait taken to be typical in the behavior of a social group” (the meaning you used), that’s not the way I’ve ever used the word, and “normal” would be a MUCH clearer and more accurate term than “normative” here.

The arguments from the past 40 pages have all been firmly rooted in actual Magisterial documents, which have been quoted abundantly here. For you to simply dismiss them and state that you hold the “normative Catholic view” is not intellectually honest, quite frankly. A basic rule in logic is that if an argument is presented, you have to either agree with the conclusion, disagree with a premise, or disagree with the manner of argumentation. You may have had a view before which, blinded by a perspective of only seeing the Church through the eyes of the West (where the Pope is not only the Supreme Pontiff but also the local Patriarch, making the two roles easy to confuse), you thought was the “normative Catholic view”. If you take the time to read and understand the last 40 pages of arguments (which I don’t expect you to; I wouldn’t try to jump in this late in the game, because it’s so much work), then you may be able to shed some light on the interpretation of the texts involved. But you can’t just dismiss them as “not Catholic” without an argument. It really is disorienting for some Roman Catholics to see a non-Roman presentation of Catholicism and hear that it is just as Catholic as their own, but this is an ignorance that the Pope has called us to dispel.
 
Well,

It looks like TrentCath is suspended and AttendeDomine is banned, so I guess SteveB is the only one left to disagree with. 🤷

Interesting thread - although a bit theologically heavy for a newbie like me. 🙂
 
**Note From Moderator: **

%between%The charity level of this discussion appears to have deteriorated while the thread is becoming an occasion of sin for some. Thank you to all those who have charitably participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.
 
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