Ecumenical Discussion: Core Beliefs and Salvation

  • Thread starter Thread starter st_felicity
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
vern_humphrey:
Evangelization or debate? If your intention is to convert someone, it takes a long time before true study begins. Conversion starts when someone is attracted to the Church – and that’s usually because someone they know and admire is a Catholic.
Do you think the repeated “attraction” to discussing the similarities and differences between Evangelicals and Catholics qualifies as that type of searching to which evangelization is appropriate and timely?
 
Ani_Ibi said:
Ani sings: :harp: :crying:

The long and winding road
that leads to your door
will never disappear
I’ve seen that road before
It always leads me here
Lead me to you door

The wild and windy night
that the rain washed away
Has left a pool of tears
crying for the day
Why leave me standing here
let me know the waaaaaaay +

Ani bows. :tiphat: Feel better now?
Click to expand...
The only thing that could have improved it would have been a liturgical dance.
 
Ani_Ibi said:
Catch 22: if we tell them the Gospel and they choose unwisely then they lose their pass-go card. If we don’t tell them, then I reckon we’re in for a whole heap of pain. Waddyathenk, c?
Click to expand...
Well, of course God has the final say. But IMHO, often “invincible ignorance” is not real ignorance at all; it might be something like, “Okay, I’ve heard that now, and I don’t want to hear any more.” In which case, the pass-go card might not be guaranteed anyway.

But the Gospel is good tidings of great joy. I guess I would try to share the fullness of faith with everyone, starting at whatever level they are, just because everyone needs the transforming truth in their lives, even if they don’t think they do.

I know you feel the same way, of course.

P.S. And “invincible ignorance” obviously DOES exist in some cases.
 
st_felicity said:
Do you think the repeated “attraction” to discussing the similarities and differences between Evangelicals and Catholics qualifies as that type of searching to which evangelization is appropriate and timely?
Click to expand...
Not always, but sometimes. (In my case, it was.) However, there’s a type of person who likes to argue Christianity with Catholics only to convert them. They know in advance that the basic premises of Christianity will be accepted, which makes their argument easier and which is not always the case with non-Christians.

Based on what I’ve seen on this forum, this type of person does not dwell long on any point which might turn out to be actually thought-provoking. As soon as they get a response to one jab, they are immediately skipping off to three or four other topics.

Mirdath is an example of someone I respect and don’t mind arguing with, because he (she?) is willing actually to listen and respond. But Mirdath isn’t even a Christian. (Yet.) There are some Christians on the forum I won’t respond to anymore. And I’ve only been here about five months!
 
cpayne said:
Not always, but sometimes. (In my case, it was.) However, there’s a type of person who likes to argue Christianity with Catholics only to convert them. They know in advance that the basic premises of Christianity will be accepted, which makes their argument easier and which is not always the case with non-Christians.!
Click to expand...
What happens when the Catholics have the “better” more cogent answer than they? I mean–what do you think goes through their head at rational polite responses? Before they skip away…does a seed settle, you think?
 
st_felicity said:
Do you think the repeated “attraction” to discussing the similarities and differences between Evangelicals and Catholics qualifies as that type of searching to which evangelization is appropriate and timely?
Click to expand...
Well, I don’t go looking for people to start debates on religion. When someone approaches me, he’s either seriously interested in Catholicism, or else he wants to attack us.

In the former case, I answer questions as completely as I can and try to point him in the right directioni. In the latter, I usually say, “That’s interesting” and change the subject.
 
st_felicity said:
What happens when the Catholics have the “better” more cogent answer than they? I mean–what do you think goes through their head at rational polite responses? Before they skip away…does a seed settle, you think?
Click to expand...
Well, the Word of God does not “return void” or empty of result, but “accomplishes” what God intended for it (Isaiah 55 or thereabouts?). So I would always have hope for a seed. Maybe I should be more open to responding to people, do you think? 😊

But I do think a lot of folks have something like this pre-programmed in their minds: (1) Catholics are wrong. (2) Therefore, Catholics are wrong about this particular topic. (3) But this appears to be a good answer. (4) But (3) conflicts with (1). (5) I’ll stick with “Catholics are wrong,” shelve this response for now, and ask my pastor about this particular question later (my Magisterial figure). (6) In the meantime, it’s off to another topic!
 
cpayne said:
Well, the Word of God does not “return void” or empty of result, but “accomplishes” what God intended for it (Isaiah 55 or thereabouts?). So I would always have hope for a seed. Maybe I should be more open to responding to people, do you think? 😊

But I do think a lot of folks have something like this pre-programmed in their minds: (1) Catholics are wrong. (2) Therefore, Catholics are wrong about this particular topic. (3) But this appears to be a good answer. (4) But (3) conflicts with (1). (5) I’ll stick with “Catholics are wrong,” shelve this response for now, and ask my pastor about this particular question later (my Magisterial figure). (6) In the meantime, it’s off to another topic!
Click to expand...
That pretty well sums it up. I find it easy to refute most Protestant Evangelicals – but what good does it do?

To look at it scientifically, there are three realms in Human Learning Theory:

Cognitive – thinking, logic, language, math and so on.

Psycho-motor – throwing a ball, riding a bicycle, and so on.

Affective – values and attitudes.

You can’t teach someone math by having them ride a bicycle. You can’t teach someone to throw a forward pass by having him construct a sylogism.

And you can’t change values and attitudes by rational argument – unless the person is already pre-disposed to listen and absorb.
 
Although I do gain practice in defending my faith…I’m getting the drift from you two that the whole thing I’m doin’ over at PP is pretty much futile and pointless and I should “dust off my sandles” as Abi quoted after I’ve gotten my fill of sword sharpening (and hope maybe a seed settled somewhere in the mean-time). Is that an accurate summary?
 
st_felicity said:
Although I do gain practice in defending my faith…I’m getting the drift from you two that the whole thing I’m doin’ over at PP is pretty much futile and pointless and I should “dust off my sandles” as Abi quoted after I’ve gotten my fill of sword sharpening (and hope maybe a seed settled somewhere in the mean-time). Is that an accurate summary?
Click to expand...
Actually, the reverse is happening in my mind as I’m considering your posts: Perhaps I should trust more in “planting seeds” and not be so cynical about people’s motivations in question-asking. Debating with some folks, even if it does no discernible good for them, might be good for those reading along. Or perhaps you DO cause people to stop and think, but they just won’t admit it, for whatever reasons, at the time of the discussion.

I guess I would say, if you think you are doing good, you enjoy what you are doing, and it seems to be planting seeds, it could be God’s will for you. Who am I to say no to that?
 
cpayne said:
Actually, the reverse is happening in my mind as I’m considering your posts: Perhaps I should trust more in “planting seeds” and not be so cynical about people’s motivations in question-asking. Debating with some folks, even if it does no discernible good for them, might be good for those reading along. Or perhaps you DO cause people to stop and think, but they just won’t admit it, for whatever reasons, at the time of the discussion.

I guess I would say, if you think you are doing good, you enjoy what you are doing, and it seems to be planting seeds, it could be God’s will for you. Who am I to say no to that?
Click to expand...
Well if the former Pastor Michael is evidence…My record ain’t so good…Over two years ago we had a long go around on some topics here and then a lengthy hiatus until recently.

I suppose he’s “softened” ever so slightly, but that is most likely just time and life…

Maybe both you and I need to move a little toward the center on both our methods. eh?
 
st_felicity said:
Although I do gain practice in defending my faith…I’m getting the drift from you two that the whole thing I’m doin’ over at PP is pretty much futile and pointless and I should “dust off my sandles” as Abi quoted after I’ve gotten my fill of sword sharpening (and hope maybe a seed settled somewhere in the mean-time). Is that an accurate summary?
Click to expand...
What’s your sense of your situation?

Are you gaining converts? Is someone showing signs of being persuaded?

Is the debate profiting you, motivating you to study the Faith more deeply?

Or are you just doing it for the fish (the halibut)?😃
 
vern_humphrey said:
What’s your sense of your situation?
Click to expand...
Not sure…I think maybe there are some seeds as I’ve described to cpayne, but I’m good at being optimistic;)
Are you gaining converts? Is someone showing signs of being persuaded?
Click to expand...
You know…I’m not really trying to convert…just elucidate, I guess. I think Catholicism speaks for itself–the deal is that preconceived ideas about Catholicism and interpretations assumed from erroneous “teachers” are rampant, and that’s what I’d like to help clear up so that the OBVIOUS Truth of Catholicism becomes apparent. Is that “converting” or “persuading?”
Is the debate profiting you, motivating you to study the Faith more deeply?
Click to expand...
Well…I’m going to be conducting the RCIA in our parish this year and it’s helping me know how to answer some difficulties some might present to me.–it seems helpful that way:thumbsup:
Or are you just doing it for the fish (the halibut)?😃
Click to expand...
Oh Cod! You’re a finny one aren’t you!😃
 
st_felicity said:
Not sure…I think maybe there are some seeds as I’ve described to cpayne, but I’m good at being optimistic;)
Click to expand...
A seed on fertile ground is a good bet.
st_felicity said:
You know…I’m not really trying to convert…just elucidate, I guess. I think Catholicism speaks for itself–the deal is that preconceived ideas about Catholicism and interpretations assumed from erroneous “teachers” are rampant, and that’s what I’d like to help clear up so that the OBVIOUS Truth of Catholicism becomes apparent. Is that “converting” or “persuading?”
Click to expand...
The problem is, the people who orginated many anti-Catholic arguments bloody well knew they were false and fallacious. And many of the people who repeat them also know they are false.

Although I’ve heard Catholics say some strange things about the Church. On a recent thread, for example, someone identifying himself as a Catholic derided the “revelations” of Vatican II. (Someone else pointed out we aren’t Mormons – there haven’t been any “revelations” since the passing of the Apostles.)😛
st_felicity said:
Well…I’m going to be conducting the RCIA in our parish this year and it’s helping me know how to answer some difficulties some might present to me.–it seems helpful that way:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Now there is a good reason to stick with debating Protestants – your students will bring in all sorts of anti-Catholic arguments they’ve heard.
st_felicity said:
Oh Cod! You’re a finny one aren’t you!😃
Click to expand...
As me sainted Irish Mither was wont to say, “There’s somethin’ fishy about yez, me bye.”😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top