Ecumenicism

[RomanCrusader]

Is anyone else really bothered by ecumenicism? I feel that it undermines all Catholic teachings while giving validity to false beliefs. I don’t see how one can reconcile past Church teaching and modern ecumenicism. Can one honestly see Pope Innocent III discussing the merits of the Qu’ran or the Talmud? I sure can’t!

If St. Peter was alive today, would he be praying alongside a Rabbi or Imam for “understanding” without naming Jesus? Thats what we seem to be doing a whole lot lately. Its all touchy-feely mutual “tolerance” and “respect”. Quite frankly it is scandelous how we refuse to mention Christ out of fear of offending the Jews, Muslims, pagans, etc. We seem to have stopped conversion campiagns altogether. For all their faults, I’ll at least give the Evangelical Protestants a certain respect for how bold and open they are about their faith.

If other religions have similar goals, then perhaps mutual work can be done. If Orthodox Jews or Muslims want to join forces in, lets say, keeping homosexuality out of Jerusalem, then that is fine. However I don’t think Catholics should be praying in Jewish/Muslim houses of worship (without explicitly mentioning the Redeemer), as those creeds stand for everything we Catholics reject. This goes even moreso for pagan religions and witchcraft.

I absolutely love our Pope and all his predecessors, but I wish is that they would cut all this ecumenicism nonsense. It goes against everything we have believed for 2000 years. Christ didn’t die on the cross so we could hold prayer sessions for “mutual understanding” with unbelievers!

 

[Dempsey1919]

Ecumenism should always be gone into with conversion in mind. I think there is a lot of false ecumenism these days.

However, the world has changed and the Popes have had to adopt a different approach in order to win converts. John Paul II made Catholicism more appealing to people through his actions and tolerance. If a modern Pope was to slander another religion it would seriously hurt the Church.

The Church still teaches that all need to convert and that “outside the Church there is no Salvation.” The Church still calls all to Christ but does this in a more gentler way than in the past.

I do think some people within the Church have the wrong idea of what ecumenism is and go into it without conversion in mind. This is wrong.

 

[awalt]

Ecumenism has a bad reputation amongst some Catholics because it is synonymous to them with watering down Catholic teaching or compromising Catholic beliefs.

I think to the bishops of the Church, ecumenism is directed at our mandate from Christ to love ALL mankind, not just Catholics, to help and serve ALL mankind, be charitable to ALL mankind, and in general to treat ALL mankind as Christ would treat (and love) us. They are also made in the image of God, after all!

Beating non-Catholics over the head with why we are right and they are wrong is not only uncharitable, but usually very ineffective in convincing them we know a better way and possess a greater love and life of Christ. Why would anyone want to be Catholic when what they see is militant doctrinalists that look down their nose at non-Catholics?

We don’t have to compromise what we believe to love and serve everyone, and that is what Christ has mandated us to do. If you need an example, look to John Paul II, who was doctrinally very uncompromising, yet was loved by many non-Catholics because he treated them with love. You can do both.

My .02

 

[nobeerinheaven]

Yeah, really? And what’s all this garbage about eating meat sacrificed to idols? Blasphemy.

 

[stmaria]

There is a thread on “Chist the King” and I would like to tie that in with ecumenism.
When I was in grade school 1958-1964 every Christ the King Sunday all of the Catholics in the United States would gather together in their various cities and march in honor of the feast day. I can still see the 25,000 plus, marching downtown. All of the children were dressed in their school uniforms and marched along with their parents. The city had to block off all of the streets. The Knights of Columbus were in full force. A huge sign was carried proclaiming " Christ the King".
All of that stopped after Vatican II. I have never found out why. I suppose that “Church militant” was offensive to Protestants and a threat to this new thing called “ecumenism”. It really is sad how the Church no longer boldly proclaims that it is the one True Church. The reformers called it “arrogant” and “offensive”. False ecumenism has driven more Catholics away from the faith then have been brought into the faith.

 

[awalt]

Preach the Gospel and use words when necessary

 

[TNT]

…
Beating non-Catholics over the head with why we are right and they are wrong is not only uncharitable, but usually very ineffective in convincing them we know a better way and possess a greater love and life of Christ. Why would anyone want to be Catholic when what they see is militant doctrinalists that look down their nose at non-Catholics?

We don’t have to compromise what we believe to love and serve everyone, and that is what Christ has mandated us to do. If you need an example, look to John Paul II, who was doctrinally very uncompromising, yet was loved by many non-Catholics because he treated them with love. You can do both.

I think you have really jumped to conclusions on the top item.

The perfect balance of Charity, Apologetics, and Conversions was St Francis de Sales.
By that collection of his writings & sermons he converted about 70,000 protestants in but a few short years.

Of course that’s why he is both Saint & Doctor of the Church.

He NEVER minced words, talked with ambiguity or ambivalence, or confused Traditon or embraced novelty for the sake of popularity.

 

[Genesis315]

Why would they do away with a Christ the King banner but not processions of the Eucharist in a Monstrance on Corpus Christi or processions of statues of Mary and the Saints as well as reliquaries of the saints on various feast days? . Those things are way, way, way more offensive to protestants than Christ the King, which is a belief we actually share with them.

By the way, the Pope speaks about Jesus Christ and the Catholic faith every single day and it is broadcast to the entire world.

 

[Genesis315]

As St. Vincent de Paul said, “One must be ever on one’s guard not to embitter the heart, if one wishes to move the mind.”

I’m not sure how many of you actually do work to bring people into the Church or not, but I think anyone with at least a tiny bit of experience can attest to the fact that many people in the modern world have had their hearts hardened so severely that they must be softened incredibly before the truth can penetrate. Most have incredibly cynical outlooks to religion as self-serving, power hungry, you name it. They are already predisposed to rejecting any dogmatic truth about God as oppressive, bigoted, and controlling.

If you just start rattling off dogmatic truths, guess what happens? At best absolutely nothing. At worst they become even more hostile.

In St. Francis de Sales time people still cared about truth and the existence of it. A reasoned treatise was often all it took–but even he said we must cook the truth in charity first so it becomes sweet. Today, most people are completely opposed to the concept of truth at all. A reasoned treatise is meaningless until there is a foundation for a reasoned treatise to even have any weight.

However, when so many look at dogmatic truth with suspicion in the first place and are already convinced of their eternal well-being, they have absolutely no reason to trust us when we assert otherwise.

However, if you can demonstrate to someone that you care selflessly about their total well-being, you can begin to soften someone’s heart to the most important part. Forming personal relationships is essential. An important step in this is truly having compassion and understanding for where the person is now. You can’t pull someone up unless you reach down first. And to even reach down to them, you have to know where they are.

Even if you are speaking with a non-Catholic who does care about truth, the first step to forming a friendly relationship where your word has meaning is discussing our love for what we agree on.

Charity is patient, is kind. It takes a lot of patience motivated by a desire burning with divine love, and even then the fruits may never come. But as St. Pius X said, “It may be that the fruit of our labors may be slow in coming, but charity wearies not with waiting, knowing that God prepares His rewards not for the results of toil but for the good will shown in it.”

 

[thecoach]

Is anyone else really bothered by ecumenicism? I feel that it undermines all Catholic teachings while giving validity to false beliefs. I don’t see how one can reconcile past Church teaching and modern ecumenicism. Can one honestly see Pope Innocent III discussing the merits of the Qu’ran or the Talmud? I sure can’t!

If St. Peter was alive today, would he be praying alongside a Rabbi or Imam for “understanding” without naming Jesus? Thats what we seem to be doing a whole lot lately. Its all touchy-feely mutual “tolerance” and “respect”. Quite frankly it is scandelous how we refuse to mention Christ out of fear of offending the Jews, Muslims, pagans, etc. We seem to have stopped conversion campiagns altogether. For all their faults, I’ll at least give the Evangelical Protestants a certain respect for how bold and open they are about their faith.

If other religions have similar goals, then perhaps mutual work can be done. If Orthodox Jews or Muslims want to join forces in, lets say, keeping homosexuality out of Jerusalem, then that is fine. However I don’t think Catholics should be praying in Jewish/Muslim houses of worship (without explicitly mentioning the Redeemer), as those creeds stand for everything we Catholics reject. This goes even moreso for pagan religions and witchcraft.

I absolutely love our Pope and all his predecessors, but I wish is that they would cut all this ecumenicism nonsense. It goes against everything we have believed for 2000 years. Christ didn’t die on the cross so we could hold prayer sessions for “mutual understanding” with unbelievers!

hasnt this been hashed out already in another thread?

 

[awalt]

I think you have really jumped to conclusions on the top item.

The perfect balance of Charity, Apologetics, and Conversions was St Francis de Sales.
By that collection of his writings & sermons he converted about 70,000 protestants in but a few short years.

Of course that’s why he is both Saint & Doctor of the Church.

He NEVER minced words, talked with ambiguity or ambivalence, or confused Traditon or embraced novelty for the sake of popularity.

I think you only read part of what I said. Read the last paragraph, especially

You can do both.

I think we are saying the same thing. I just don’t see a lot of balance on this board at times, I am glad you feel the same way!

 

[stmaria]

Why would they do away with a Christ the King banner but not processions of the Eucharist in a Monstrance on Corpus Christi or processions of statues of Mary and the Saints as well as reliquaries of the saints on various feast days? . Those things are way, way, way more offensive to protestants than Christ the King, which is a belief we actually share with them.

By the way, the Pope speaks about Jesus Christ and the Catholic faith every single day and it is broadcast to the entire world.

Oh really? Are you telling me that they block off New York City and downtown Boston, Los Angeles, Dallas,etc for processions of the Eucharist in a Monstrance. And all the Catholic school children, their parents and members of the parish, maybe around 25,000 people, march for several miles? When did it happen? I must have missed it. Is it on youtube or can you link an article. I would like to read about it.

 

[ncjohn]

Oh really? Are you telling me that they block off New York City and downtown Boston, Los Angeles, Dallas,etc for processions of the Eucharist in a Monstrance. And all the Catholic school children, their parents and members of the parish, maybe around 25,000 people, march for several miles? When did it happen? I must have missed it. Is it on youtube or can you link an article. I would like to read about it.

I don’t know about other locations, but here’s a link from this years Eucharistic Congress in Charlotte, the third annual.

charlottediocese.org/2007highlights.html

 

[latinmass]

Ecumenism should always be gone into with conversion in mind. I think there is a lot of false ecumenism these days.

However, the world has changed and the Popes have had to adopt a different approach in order to win converts. John Paul II made Catholicism more appealing to people through his actions and tolerance. If a modern Pope was to slander another religion it would seriously hurt the Church.

The Church still teaches that all need to convert and that “outside the Church there is no Salvation.” The Church still calls all to Christ but does this in a more gentler way than in the past.

I do think some people within the Church have the wrong idea of what ecumenism is and go into it without conversion in mind. This is wrong.

It’s this type of relativism in thinking that has damaged the Church so much. The world can change all it wants. That does not change the Churchs teachings. “You brood of vipers” I guess the way Jesus and St. Paul taught is to harsh. With charity, yes but with the harsh reality of hell for those who do not bow to our Lord. By the way, your kinder gentler pc ways of saying things to people has fewer in the Church not more. I see so many post of “bashing heads” with truth. Like I said you enable people with your pc ways right into hell, and you will be judged for your sin of silence or pc, so you don’t offend anyone. Where are the martyrs? Truth at any cost. Your comfortable worlds sicken me.

 

[RomanCrusader]

If you just start rattling off dogmatic truths, guess what happens? At best absolutely nothing. At worst they become even more hostile.

The Church does not need to water down its truth so that heathens (yes I’m using that word!) will potentially come around.

We have a good deal to offer (salvation), and one can either take it or leave it! Am I saying all non-Catholics wind up in Hell? Not necissarily, as only God knows who is saved and perhaps He pardons certain non-Catholics for their ignorance. However that is not a risk worth taking, and the only sure path to salvation is Catholicism.

In St. Francis de Sales time people still cared about truth and the existence of it. A reasoned treatise was often all it took–but even he said we must cook the truth in charity first so it becomes sweet. Today, most people are completely opposed to the concept of truth at all. A reasoned treatise is meaningless until there is a foundation for a reasoned treatise to even have any weight.

That is exactly why we must fight against the liberal culture of todays world, not appease it like you suggest! We must stand against all the evil that secularists stand for!

However, when so many look at dogmatic truth with suspicion in the first place and are already convinced of their eternal well-being, they have absolutely no reason to trust us when we assert otherwise.

What benefit is gained by Catholic Bishops praying with a rabbi for “the coming of the Messaih”, without mentioning Him by name? NOTHING! All we are doing in that situation is appeasing the rabbi’s false religion. Same goes for Catholics praying with Muslims to “God” or praying with pagans to the “Great Spirit”.

I have nothing to hide. All religions except for Catholicism are lies. That goes for modern Judaism, Calvinism, Islam, paganism, Buddhism, witchcraft, etc. They are lies.

The only religion that is an exception and contains partial truth is some forms of Protestantism and Orthodoxy, those that do not distort God so much that they make themselves utter apostates. However even some Protestant sects, such as the satanic creed of Calvinism, are just as bad as the pagans.

However, if you can demonstrate to someone that you care selflessly about their total well-being, you can begin to soften someone’s heart to the most important part. Forming personal relationships is essential. An important step in this is truly having compassion and understanding for where the person is now. You can’t pull someone up unless you reach down first. And to even reach down to them, you have to know where they are.

The Church always has and ever shall help those who are in need of it. Our charity is unending. However we cannot hide the truth!

Charity is patient, is kind. It takes a lot of patience motivated by a desire burning with divine love, and even then the fruits may never come. But as St. Pius X said, “It may be that the fruit of our labors may be slow in coming, but charity wearies not with waiting, knowing that God prepares His rewards not for the results of toil but for the good will shown in it.”

Divine love is converting as many willing souls as we can, not watering down the faith my friend.

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

Is anyone else really bothered by ecumenicism? I feel that it undermines all Catholic teachings while giving validity to false beliefs. I don’t see how one can reconcile past Church teaching and modern ecumenicism. Can one honestly see Pope Innocent III discussing the merits of the Qu’ran or the Talmud? I sure can’t!

Neither can I.

If St. Peter was alive today, would he be praying alongside a Rabbi or Imam for “understanding” without naming Jesus? Thats what we seem to be doing a whole lot lately. Its all touchy-feely mutual “tolerance” and “respect”. Quite frankly it is scandelous how we refuse to mention Christ out of fear of offending the Jews, Muslims, pagans, etc. We seem to have stopped conversion campiagns altogether. For all their faults, I’ll at least give the Evangelical Protestants a certain respect for how bold and open they are about their faith.

Good point. It is strange that protestants are more open about Christ than some modernist/liberal Catholics. St Peter cannot be compared to the liberals who support Ecumenism. He is far greater in all ways, and of course he would be in opposition to what Christ wanted him to do if he prayed alongside Imans. Converting them to the Universal Church i.e. The Catholic Church yes, worship in a mosque, of course no.

If other religions have similar goals, then perhaps mutual work can be done. If Orthodox Jews or Muslims want to join forces in, lets say, keeping homosexuality out of Jerusalem, then that is fine.

There is no allowance for homosexuality, especially among clergy. It is an abomination.

However I don’t think Catholics should be praying in Jewish/Muslim houses of worship (without explicitly mentioning the Redeemer), as those creeds stand for everything we Catholics reject. This goes even moreso for pagan religions and witchcraft.

But this is what has been done, and it is of course ridiculous and heretical.

I absolutely love our Pope and all his predecessors, but I wish is that they would cut all this ecumenicism nonsense. It goes against everything we have believed for 2000 years. Christ didn’t die on the cross so we could hold prayer sessions for “mutual understanding” with unbelievers!

For example, the Apostate worships permitted at Taize, Assisi, and Fatima. May GOD put an end to this Blaspheme. These worships are a humiliation to GOD the Almighty.

" This having been said, in light of the Catholic Faith, the prayer meeting of religions at Assisi can be considered tantamount to:

1.  an insult to God;

2.  a denial of the universal necessity of Redemption;

3.  a lack of justice and charity towards the infidels;

4.  a danger and a scandal to Catholics; and

5.  a betrayal of the Church’s and Peter’s mission. "

see link for full text of above 5 points: sspx.org/miscellaneous/what_should_we_make_of_assisi.htm

 

[ThereCanBeOnly1]

The Church does not need to water down its truth so that heathens (yes I’m using that word!) will potentially come around.

We have a good deal to offer (salvation), and one can either take it or leave it! Am I saying all non-Catholics wind up in Hell? Not necissarily, as only God knows who is saved and perhaps He pardons certain non-Catholics for their ignorance.** However that is not a risk worth taking, and the only sure path to salvation is Catholicism.**

Exactly, there are only special cases where one is saved outside the Church (and I am not referring to the watered down liberal/modernist ideology). Otherwise outside the Church there is No Salvation.

That is exactly why we must fight against the liberal culture of todays world, not appease it like you suggest! We must stand against all the evil that secularists stand for!

Yes, I agree, it is a battle and it is for Christ. The evils of the secularists are indeed of Satan.

What benefit is gained by Catholic Bishops praying with a rabbi for “the coming of the Messaih”, without mentioning Him by name? NOTHING! All we are doing in that situation is appeasing the rabbi’s false religion. Same goes for Catholics praying with Muslims to “God” or praying with pagans to the “Great Spirit”.

There is no benefit by praying for the coming of the Messiah with a rabbi, hence this is anti-Christ. Also,
Islam denies the divinity of Christ and the Holy Trinity. This is Apostasy. It is more beneficial to convert them to Christ.

I have nothing to hide. All religions except for Catholicism are lies. That goes for modern Judaism, Calvinism, Islam, paganism, Buddhism, witchcraft, etc. They are lies.

And lies are not of GOD but anti-God. It is funny how the modernists/liberals accept these religions and cults (some of the devil), but pay no mind to the likes of the SSPX. It is simple, they know what it is they do, since it is obvious even to the non-Catholic.

The only religion that is an exception and contains partial truth is some forms of Protestantism and Orthodoxy, those that do not distort God so much that they make themselves utter apostates. However even some Protestant sects, such as the satanic creed of Calvinism, are just as bad as the pagans.

The liberals need to understand that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, for it is the only Church. Catholicism is the only true religion.

The Church always has and ever shall help those who are in need of it. Our charity is unending. However we cannot hide the truth!
Divine love is converting as many willing souls as we can, not watering down the faith my friend.

Agreed.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Here’s what ecumenism means to me and it is particularly appropos given that today is the Feast of All Saints.

My paternal grandfather came from a Catholic family and married my paternal grandmother who was a divorced Protestant around 1912. Back then not only did it mean excommunication but it also meant that his Catholic family turned their backs on him. To my knowledge none of his brothers ever spoke to him again.

My father was not raised Catholic although he did have limited contact with his father’s Catholic family. My mother and my father got married in 1947. They had to petition the archbishop for permission to marry and my father had to state that he would raise his children Catholic. They were married in the sacristy because back then they were not allowed to be married in church even outside of Mass.

My father was a man of his word and the three of us were not only raised Catholic but my father worked two jobs to put the three of us through Catholic school from K to 12.

Now, in my neck of the woods, most everyone is buried above ground. The weekend before All Saints Day everyone headed for the cemetery to whitewash the tombs, weed, and put flowers out. Back in the 50s and 60s this was a big family affair. My maternal great-aunt happened to be a childhood friend of my paternal great-aunt. When we were finished with preparation of the grave, my aunt would take the three of us to the other side of the cemetery where my father’s family tomb was. That was the only contact I had with my grandfather’s family.

In 1967, my paternal grandmother died. We had to go to our parish priest and seek permission to attend my grandmother’s protestant funeral.

How do you think the three of us felt as children growing up with the concept that outside of the Church there is no salvation? Do you know how often I worried that my father and the rest of his family were going to hell? My father was the one who got me up at 5:30 am and drove me to church so that I could serve the 6 am Mass.

It’s all well and good to rail against ecumensim but it meant something entirely different when I was a child. I’m surprised that no one of my age has brought this up. Ecumenism to me means that people who are dear to me are not automatically consigned to the depths of hell. One of the more positive things to come out of Vatican II. Oh, and no more pagan babies.

 

[RomanCrusader]

It’s all well and good to rail against ecumensim but it meant something entirely different when I was a child. I’m surprised that no one of my age has brought this up. Ecumenism to me means that people who are dear to me are not automatically consigned to the depths of hell. One of the more positive things to come out of Vatican II. Oh, and no more pagan babies.

First let me say your father sounds like a great man. Secondly, I agree that it is not automatic damnation for every non-Catholic. The Church has always made it clear that it cannot declare anyone (not even Judas!) to be in Hell for sure. Our loving God has the final say. However, I think we can agree Catholicism is the safest bet for salvation, and when one leaves its boundaries things start getting risky. Living without the Catholic faith is like driving home at night without the lights on. Sure, you could possibly make it home in one piece. But its a big risk.

What bothers me about ecumenicism most is the recognition it gives to false and blasphemous non-Christian religions like Judaism and Islam. By calling these religions names like “Abrahamic brothers”, we basically reject Christ, as the Jews and Muslims do. There is no good in “mutual understanding” programs with the Jews and Muslims. The only thing we should send to them is conversion messages! By even giving recognition to Judaism and Islam and claiming they worship the same God, we are insulting our own faith.

The ecumenicist movement today goes as far as to embrace these false creeds. I imagine Christ dying on the cross, and then I see a Catholic bishop praying in a synagogue or mosque with Christ-rejecting unbelievers. That is what makes my blood boil.

 

[RomanCrusader]

ThereCanBeOnly1, great posts!