Ecumenicism

[Dempsey1919]

Originally Posted by Dempsey1919

Ecumenism should always be gone into with conversion in mind. I think there is a lot of false ecumenism these days.

However, the world has changed and the Popes have had to adopt a different approach in order to win converts. John Paul II made Catholicism more appealing to people through his actions and tolerance. If a modern Pope was to slander another religion it would seriously hurt the Church.

The Church still teaches that all need to convert and that “outside the Church there is no Salvation.” The Church still calls all to Christ but does this in a more gentler way than in the past.

Originally Posted by latinmass

I do think some people within the Church have the wrong idea of what ecumenism is and go into it without conversion in mind. This is wrong.
It’s this type of relativism in thinking that has damaged the Church so much. The world can change all it wants. That does not change the Churchs teachings. “You brood of vipers” I guess the way Jesus and St. Paul taught is to harsh. With charity, yes but with the harsh reality of hell for those who do not bow to our Lord. By the way, your kinder gentler pc ways of saying things to people has fewer in the Church not more. I see so many post of “bashing heads” with truth. Like I said you enable people with your pc ways right into hell, and you will be judged for your sin of silence or pc, so you don’t offend anyone. Where are the martyrs? Truth at any cost. Your comfortable worlds sicken me.

I’ve never been labelled pc before - that’s a first. I never thought I’d live to hear that.

I don’t think I am saying anything that would prevent people from converting.

Modern man is more hostile towards religion and is less receptive to the truth. Most people these days simply will not listen to someone who is being forceful with their religious views. Threatening people with damnation no longer provides an incentive for them to convert.

Although the faith has not changed, society has and the Church must preach her message in a slightly different way in order to be effective. John Paul II did some things that I didn’t approve of, but he did treat all people with respect. I believe that he was sincere in his actions and truly wanted the world to be united to Holy Mother Church.

You must realise that the Church has not changed her beliefs, but she has changed the way that she presents them. It is possible to evangelise without being hostile towards other religions. In fact, being hostile and offensive is likely to have the opposite affect and put people off.

With this in mind, I would like to point out that there is a lot of false ecumenism these days. All religions are not equal; while they may contain elements of truth and salvation, the Catholic Church alone is the guardian of truth. Catholicism is the true religion of God.

I still affirm that there is “No Salvation outside of the Catholic Church,” except in cases where people are invincibly ignorant of the Church. I still believe that all must convert to the Catholic Church in order to receive the fullness of the faith and the gift of salvation.

 

[stmaria]

I don’t know about other locations, but here’s a link from this years Eucharistic Congress in Charlotte, the third annual.

charlottediocese.org/2007highlights.html

Not the same thing. Back in the day every major city in the world would have a procession on the Feast of Christ the King. I am talking about 20-40,000 marching. The main roads were all blocked off in the downtown area. It made the front pages of all the newspapers. It was a big event. It stopped after Vatican II

 

[ncjohn]

Not the same thing. Back in the day every major city in the world would have a procession on the Feast of Christ the King. I am talking about 20-40,000 marching. The main roads were all blocked off in the downtown area. It made the front pages of all the newspapers. It was a big event. It stopped after Vatican II

Gee, I’m sorry that a few thousand in the middle of the Bible Belt doesn’t meet your qualifications.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Not the same thing. Back in the day every major city in the world would have a procession on the Feast of Christ the King. I am talking about 20-40,000 marching. The main roads were all blocked off in the downtown area. It made the front pages of all the newspapers. It was a big event. It stopped after Vatican II

There was a Corpus Christi procession in New Orleans this year. I guess the shock of Katrina was enough so that for the second year in a row we are reclaiming our Catholic heritage.

John, my brother, what can I say? After 15 years of living in a town where there is no Catholic church and where we “i.e. my family and I” have been branded as witches…I feel your pain!

 

[otjm]

It’s this type of relativism in thinking that has damaged the Church so much. The world can change all it wants. That does not change the Churchs teachings. “You brood of vipers” I guess the way Jesus and St. Paul taught is to harsh. With charity, yes but with the harsh reality of hell for those who do not bow to our Lord. By the way, your kinder gentler pc ways of saying things to people has fewer in the Church not more. I see so many post of “bashing heads” with truth. Like I said you enable people with your pc ways right into hell, and you will be judged for your sin of silence or pc, so you don’t offend anyone. Where are the martyrs? Truth at any cost. Your comfortable worlds sicken me.

You seem to have a good bit to say, so let’s all put our money where our mouth is.

How many people have you assisted in converting to the Church?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Secondly, I agree that it is not automatic damnation for every non-Catholic.

There are two classes of people who say that. Catholics, and those claiming to be members of the real Church. If Christians they tend to say that the Catholic church has moved away from the teachings of Jesus, but their own group has restored something much closer, if Muslim that Mohammed’s message superceded it.

Most people who are outside of the Church and acknowledge that they are outside of it accept that death means the end. Or maybe endless cycles of Earthly life. Certainly it is rare for them to have hope of salvation.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Most people who are outside of the Church and acknowledge that they are outside of it accept that death means the end.

Most people who are not Catholic sincerely believe that their religion is true. They believe in their religion as much as we do in ours. In fact, they are probably on a forum talking about the need to convert non-believers to the “true faith,” in the same way that we are. They don’t believe that “death means the end.” If they did believe this, then they would search for the truth in an attempt to save themselves.

“There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.” I believe in this teaching. Christ founded one Church to teach the nations and bring all men to him. The Catholic Church alone has the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

However, I believe that it is possible for a person to be saved if they are completely ignorant of the Catholic Church. For example, a tribesman in the Amazon rain forrest may be saved by living a good moral life even though he has absolutely no knowledge of the Catholic Church.

Those who know about the Church and reject it are committing a mortal sin. If a person is drawn to the Catholic faith for even the smallest reason and does not investigate it, he is also committing a sin. Faith is a grace from God.

Conversion to the Church is an absolute necessity. Living outside of the confines of the Catholic Church is like living through a famine, you will most likely die; only the Catholic Church can give you the Bread of Life and save you from death through Jesus Christ.

I think the Church needs to focus more on converting others. However, I can’t complain too much because I haven’t even brought one soul to Christ.

 

[latinmass]

You seem to have a good bit to say, so let’s all put our money where our mouth is.

How many people have you assisted in converting to the Church?

With Gods grace I do my best to tell those around me about the salvation that is only in Jesus and His Church. I speak the truth with love not and let the Holy Spirit do His work. I don’t count numbers, this is just a way of life with Gods grace we should all lead.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Most people who are not Catholic sincerely believe that their religion is true. They believe in their religion as much as we do in ours. In fact, they are probably on a forum talking about the need to convert non-believers to the “true faith,” in the same way that we are.

That’s an easy mistake to make. non-Christian religions are not Christianity with maybe some extra gods and a different main guy. Jesus invented the idea of the missionary religion, though Mohammed copied it. There was also an isolated case of Hindu missionaries going to Bali, and you might be able to dig out a few other examples - Marxism would be a case in point, if we allow it as a religion and the missionary element not inspired by Christianity.

However most peoples want to keep their gods for themselves, and most peoples do not believe in salvation. A lot of people don’t even believe that their religion is true, it is rather “true for them”

 

[rwoehmke]

Here’s what ecumenism means to me and it is particularly appropos given that today is the Feast of All Saints.

My paternal grandfather came from a Catholic family and married my paternal grandmother who was a divorced Protestant around 1912. Back then not only did it mean excommunication but it also meant that his Catholic family turned their backs on him. To my knowledge none of his brothers ever spoke to him again.

My father was not raised Catholic although he did have limited contact with his father’s Catholic family. My mother and my father got married in 1947. They had to petition the archbishop for permission to marry and my father had to state that he would raise his children Catholic. They were married in the sacristy because back then they were not allowed to be married in church even outside of Mass.

My father was a man of his word and the three of us were not only raised Catholic but my father worked two jobs to put the three of us through Catholic school from K to 12.

Now, in my neck of the woods, most everyone is buried above ground. The weekend before All Saints Day everyone headed for the cemetery to whitewash the tombs, weed, and put flowers out. Back in the 50s and 60s this was a big family affair. My maternal great-aunt happened to be a childhood friend of my paternal great-aunt. When we were finished with preparation of the grave, my aunt would take the three of us to the other side of the cemetery where my father’s family tomb was. That was the only contact I had with my grandfather’s family.

In 1967, my paternal grandmother died. We had to go to our parish priest and seek permission to attend my grandmother’s protestant funeral.

How do you think the three of us felt as children growing up with the concept that outside of the Church there is no salvation? Do you know how often I worried that my father and the rest of his family were going to hell? My father was the one who got me up at 5:30 am and drove me to church so that I could serve the 6 am Mass.

It’s all well and good to rail against ecumensim but it meant something entirely different when I was a child. I’m surprised that no one of my age has brought this up. Ecumenism to me means that people who are dear to me are not automatically consigned to the depths of hell. One of the more positive things to come out of Vatican II. Oh, and no more pagan babies.

Almost a parallel for my upbringing, although grandpap was a Lutheran from the get go and no divorce. It was always gut wrenching to think your loving non-Catholic relatives, including your Lutheran father who heard your catechism, drove you to Mass, and Catholic School and worked two jobs most of his life, were bound for hell.

Also “anyone who knows about the Catholic Church” is a whole lot different than “anyone who knows the Catholic Church is the true Church and refuses to join” is another story.

 

[otjm]

It’s this type of relativism in thinking that has damaged the Church so much. The world can change all it wants. That does not change the Churchs teachings. “You brood of vipers” I guess the way Jesus and St. Paul taught is to harsh. With charity, yes but with the harsh reality of hell for those who do not bow to our Lord. By the way, your kinder gentler pc ways of saying things to people has fewer in the Church not more. I see so many post of “bashing heads” with truth. Like I said you enable people with your pc ways right into hell, and you will be judged for your sin of silence or pc, so you don’t offend anyone. Where are the martyrs? Truth at any cost. Your comfortable worlds sicken me.

Well, this was your response to Dempsey 1919, so I am going to ask it again, since you say you don’t keep numbers.

Have any of the people you have shared with joined the Church? Any at all? Surely you must know of one or two, and since you are so quick to criticize how anyone else is inviting people into the Church, I am sure that we all could learn from your example.
since I am sure, by your own words, that you do not use a “kinder gentler pc ways of saying things to people…”

So how many has your not “kinder gentler pc ways of saying things to people” actually succeeded in getting to convert? Don’t give that “leaving it to the Holy Spirit” bit, that’s just a cop out. Let’s talk numbers.

I am true to the Magisterium; I speak what the Church teaches, but I do it in a “Kinder gentler ‘pc’ way of saying things to people” and my count is over 60; I have been there at Easter to see them baptized or make their profession of faith.

If you are going to criticize everyone around you, even though you have not heard what they actually say, then come on, lets get down where the rubber meets the road - how many? Or are you just going to set yourself up as the critic of those who do, and pat yourself on the back for not being like them?

 

[otjm]

Also “anyone who knows about the Catholic Church” is a whole lot different than “anyone who knows the Catholic Church is the true Church and refuses to join” is another story.

Sadly, all too many who style themselves as Catholics cannot tell the difference.

 

[latinmass]

Well, this was your response to Dempsey 1919, so I am going to ask it again, since you say you don’t keep numbers.

Have any of the people you have shared with joined the Church? Any at all? Surely you must know of one or two, and since you are so quick to criticize how anyone else is inviting people into the Church, I am sure that we all could learn from your example.
since I am sure, by your own words, that you do not use a “kinder gentler pc ways of saying things to people…”

So how many has your not “kinder gentler pc ways of saying things to people” actually succeeded in getting to convert? Don’t give that “leaving it to the Holy Spirit” bit, that’s just a cop out. Let’s talk numbers.

I am true to the Magisterium; I speak what the Church teaches, but I do it in a “Kinder gentler ‘pc’ way of saying things to people” and my count is over 60; I have been there at Easter to see them baptized or make their profession of faith.

If you are going to criticize everyone around you, even though you have not heard what they actually say, then come on, lets get down where the rubber meets the road - how many? Or are you just going to set yourself up as the critic of those who do, and pat yourself on the back for not being like them?

There is an old saying, “Gargage in, garbage out” Your watered down truths I’m sure packs them in.

 

[otjm]

There is an old saying, “Gargage in, garbage out” Your watered down truths I’m sure packs them in.

What truths are watered down? Please be specific; I cannot change what I do not know needs changing. You must have soomething specific in mind.

 

[latinmass]

What truths are watered down? Please be specific; I cannot change what I do not know needs changing. You must have soomething specific in mind.

Things such as “all religions are meaningful” “we all worship the same God” “protestants are not heretics” to name some. If you have not passed any of these heresies along in your spreading of the Gospel, I apologize and thank God for you. Their is no greater love for our neighbor than to have the courage to tell them the truth of the Gospel.

 

[otjm]

Things such as “all religions are meaningful” “we all worship the same God” “protestants are not heretics” to name some. If you have not passed any of these heresies along in your spreading of the Gospel, I apologize and thank God for you. Their is no greater love for our neighbor than to have the courage to tell them the truth of the Gospel.

Considering that I have said none of those things, I will take this as your withdrawl of your comments to me.

Either you do not read what I write, or you read it and do not comprend what you read.

I said I was teaching according to the Magisterium. I do not take kindly a response from you after I have said that, that I am giving “watered down truths”.

 

[latinmass]

Considering that I have said none of those things, I will take this as your withdrawl of your comments to me.

Either you do not read what I write, or you read it and do not comprend what you read.

I said I was teaching according to the Magisterium. I do not take kindly a response from you after I have said that, that I am giving “watered down truths”.

I have responded to you directly. Can you be specific on your Magisterium teaching on Ecumenism, so Ican can teach truth in this regard as you do.

 

[Cristiano]

Things such as “all religions are meaningful” “we all worship the same God” “protestants are not heretics” to name some. If you have not passed any of these heresies along in your spreading of the Gospel, I apologize and thank God for you. Their is no greater love for our neighbor than to have the courage to tell them the truth of the Gospel.

What is wrong with saying that all the religions are meaningful? While I am quite sure that there is no salvation outside the Church I also understand that all of us are created with an innate call to God and that is why we have religions that have developed in parallel to Christianity. Are they 100% True? No! Should we discard 100% of what they state? No!. The limit is that even Satanism is somehow meaningful from the point of view that it acknowledges the existence of God and the understanding of the fallen angels.

 

[Roy5]

Hm! “All religions but Catholicism are lies!” That attitude is why Catholicism was distrusted by millions of Protestants and those of other faiths over the years. Too much like the thinking of Islamic crazies who believe emphatically that their way is the only way to salvation.

Pope John XXIII and Vatican II led many to look at Catholicism with greater understanding and sympathy. Previous to that there was a widespread fear that Catholicism was at heart hostile toward religious freedom and separation of church and state. Remember the ‘Syllabus of Errors’ of Pope Pius IX which condemned both ideas that are essential to American democracy.

The real challenge of Catholicism is to keep its faithful from drifting away into secularism or into some form of Protestantism, often the evangelical variety. Polls now indicate that American Catholics are less likely to embrace several basic Christian doctrines than most Protestants. All this has changed over the past 50 or so years. Maybe somebody should write a careful book explaining why this has happened.

 

[catharina]

I have responded to you directly. Can you be specific on your Magisterium teaching on Ecumenism, so Ican can teach truth in this regard as you do.

This is the very kind of back-and-forth that is simply maddening.

You insult someone, you make assumptions, you insult him/her again, you make NO apologies - and then you ask the person to “teach you” - so you can kick “teacher” in the teeth again? I’ve decided to speak up when I see this kind of exchange on this Catholic site. It’s so venal and disgusting, IN MY OPINION.