Ecumenism and Modernism

[_AnnoDomini]

Hello everyone! I’m in the middle of converting to Catholicism, and I’ve encountered a bit of a problem when I was studying various heresies.

The NewAdvent Catholic Encyclopedia states that Modernism includes “A spirit of reconciliation among all men through the feelings of the heart. Many and varied also are the modernist dreams of an understanding between the different Christian religions, nay, even between religion and a species of atheism, and all on a basis of agreement that must be superior to mere doctrinal differences.”

I’m a bit worried about this, because it’s one of my life’s philosophies to take time and understand people, regardless of their religious background! I’m even studying social work and psychology in college. Most of my close friends aren’t Christian, and many of them are a part of the LGBT community. While I don’t agree with some of their lifestyle choices, we’re still able to be close friends because we never really talk about religious stuff.

NewAdvent also describes Modernist thinking: “For [Modernists] external intuition furnishes man with but phenomenal contingent, sensible knowledge. He sees, he feels, he hears, he tastes, he touches this something, this phenomenon that comes and goes without telling him aught of the existence of a suprasensible, absolute and unchanging reality outside all environing space and time. But deep within himself man feels the need of a higher hope. He aspires to perfection in a being on whom he feels his destiny depends. And so he has an instinctive, an affective yearning for God. This necessary impulse is at first obscure and hidden in the subconsciousness.”

I… also kind of believe this. I do think that there’s something deep within the human soul that yearns for God, and will lead people to try and search for religious truth. Obviously, I believe that that truth lies in Catholicism, but I also believe that this yearning can be found in everyone, even if they’re not religious.

I think it’s really important to reach out to others and take the time to understand them, no matter if they’re Christian or not. I don’t think that understanding between religions is really possible on a general scale, but I’m talking more about like, on an individual level. Am I falling into the heresy of modernism by believing so?

 

[Tolle_Lege]

The Catholic Encyclopedia is over 100 years old and is not an official Church document. The Church today reaches out to the types of groups you mentioned, and in a manner more in line with what you expressed in your post, but still retains Catholic teachings on faith and morals.

 

[_AnnoDomini]

Ohh, I see! It makes more sense that it’s not an official document. Thank you very much!

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Pascendi and Lamentabili sane are official Church documents that describe the errors of Modernism.

IIRC, the basic premise of Modernism is that there is no objective truth that can be apprehended by the intellect; it’s all subjective and experiential. That is false because Vatican I (1869-70) stated that the existence of God can be known even by natural reason. However, the fact that there is one God in three Divine Persons is above - but does not contradict - reason since God Himself has revealed it.

Modernism says that it’s not true unless one experiences it first. Well, there is one God in three Divine Persons whether or not modernists believe it.

Does that help?

 

[Maximian]

The Catholic Encyclopedia is not authoritative but it is reliable because Catholic teaching respects the principle of non contradiction. If it was true before, it’s still true.

Like you most of my friends are atheists (including gay) agnostics, moslems, jews , freemasons, and protestants of all kinds. The fact that I openly disagree with them on some of their most cherished beliefs does not stop them from being my friends; it’s just part of being a Catholic. Most of them don’t compromise either, on matters of faith.

 

[Dovekin]

That Catholic Encyclopedia description of Modernism is actually more benign than Pius X’s papal teaching on it!

Paul VI’s encyclical Ecclesiam Suam covers the topic of dialogue quite well. I think you would agree with its approach to people of other beliefs. John Paul II’s Ut Unum Sint also discusses ecumenism, but Paul VI sounds like it is more about your specific issues.

And no, Paul VI does not contradict earlier teaching on Modernism, though I am sure many anti-modernists think he does.

 

[Wesrock]

The issue isn’t understanding other faiths, and Catholics definitely believe all men and women have an inner drive towards God. The issue is syncretism, “it doesn’t matter what you believe or practice,” etc…

 

[kapp19]

You aren’t reading the article correctly. “Understanding,” for instance, does not mean “listening respectfully” - it means something more like “I’m okay, you’re okay, and it doesn’t matter what we believe.”

Romans 1 helps with the second point about learning about God through the world. We can…

 

[EndTimes]

Modernism is never OK … I=

Ecumenism - followed correctly is OK

VAT II is all about Ecumenism

 

[Bill_B_NY]

And no, Paul VI does not contradict earlier teaching on Modernism, though I am sure many anti-modernists think he does.

Modernism is a heresy, so I will hope that all Catholics are anti-modernist.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

“A spirit of reconciliation among all men through the feelings of the heart. ”

Notice here it says that reconciliation will occur through “feelings of the heart”. In other words, the doctrines that Jesus gave us, in which we must put our faith, are not that important. Modernism will teach that if we just have good feelings, then that is enough. But that’s a very big mistake that many people today make. They will set aside any doctrine of the Faith in order to be friendly. But this is dishonest, really. It compromises what we believe because some people might not like it. We have to act prudently - not compromise our belief, but also be respectful of the beliefs of others.

Most of my close friends aren’t Christian, and many of them are a part of the LGBT community. While I don’t agree with some of their lifestyle choices, we’re still able to be close friends because we never really talk about religious stuff.

I think that’s kind of the norm today, that we will have to make friends with people of very diverse views and basically religion will never be part of the conversation as a consequence.
Eventually, what is most important to you is your love of God. A true friend will want to know that. What is most important to the LGBT people is their LGBT belief and they will usually not hesitate to say it. Our religion has a lot of power, so we refrain from bringing it up. But I’d just suggest that you will find good friends who are also good Catholics and this will give you a chance to talk about what is most important to you.

I… also kind of believe this. I do think that there’s something deep within the human soul that yearns for God, and will lead people to try and search for religious truth. .

In the Modernist heresy, it’s not just the “yearning”, which you’re right about is found in every human being, but the actual religious conviction itself is a “feeling of the heart”. It’s a version of Protestantism, in some ways - “faith alone” and “faith” is a feeling towards God. (Mormonism has it as the burning in the heart".) So, it’s a subjective feeling. But we have distinct, defined beliefs that we must give our faith towards, not just have a good feeling. “Jesus rose from the dead” - that’s a dogma of Faith. Whether we have a good feeling or not about it is irrelevant. But with Modernism any doctrine can be dismissed as long as a person has an inner feeling of belief.

Am I falling into the heresy of modernism by believing so?

I think it is great that you are concerned about this! I find Modernism to be a very widespread and dangerous heresy. It ends up compromising the Catholic Faith and it is the basis of “pick and choose” Catholicism where people disregard teachings handed down from Jesus to the apostles, but still consider themselves to be faithful Catholics. They feel a love for their religion, not realizing that we show that love by obeying the teachings of the Magisterium.
Our relationships with other religions must be carried out with charity but also with truth about what the Catholic Faith really is - presented when appropriate.

 

[EndTimes]

Modernism is a heresy, so I will hope that all Catholics are anti-modernist

Modernism… is one of Satan’s figurative daughters…

Modernism has crept into Catholicism…

Catholicism is SPLIT

_

 

[Bill_B_NY]

Agreed, End Times. It’s like the Arian crisis. Some say today it may be even worse than at that time, when many Catholics fell into false belief. They wanted a worldly-religion. They wanted to be Catholic, but not to accept that Jesus is Divine. So, they compromised and had a false belief about Jesus, that he was just a man, but still wanted to be considered Catholic. Most of the bishops fell into this. It took a lot of time and suffering to come out of it.
The same with the Protestant heresy - many faithful and bishops lapsed into it. They wanted a more worldly religion - without the supernatural power of the sacraments, and the divine power given to the Church.
I’d only say that Catholicism itself, will never split. It will remain in its integrity until the end of the world. But the visible Church will lose members and is doing it now, sadly - first by people denying the true teachings. But they stay in the parishes. I think the second step is that they eventually leave the Church or, sadly, they have to be excommunicated for a refusal to accept Catholic teaching. So far, the Popes have been tolerant in hopes that Modernists will make their way back over time. But the day may come when that strategy does not work because the true believers are being persecuted and driven out of the Church by those who are in error. God will not permit that kind of thing to go on for long. He will protect and purify His Church.

 

[Maximian]

The issue is syncretism, “it doesn’t matter what you believe or practice,” etc…

That’s Indifferentism.

Syncretism is when you mix the practices of more than one religion (often due to Indifferentism)

For example, if I venerate the Virgin Mary in a way I have learned from people who venerate Pachamama, that is syncretism.

If I say it doesn’t matter if you venerate the Virgin Mary or Pachamama, that’s Indifferentism.

 

[Maximian]

VAT II is all about Ecumenism

As so often, it all hinges on the meaning of a single word: “subsists”

 

[Dovekin]

Dovekin:

And no, Paul VI does not contradict earlier teaching on Modernism, though I am sure many anti-modernists think he does.

Modernism is a heresy, so I will hope that all Catholics are anti-modernist.

Anti-modernism can be as heretical as modernism. For every Arian who denied the divinity of Jesus, there was a Docetist or a Monophysite who denied his humanity.

 

[Magnanimity]

Hello everyone! I’m in the middle of converting to Catholicism, and I’ve encountered a bit of a problem when I was studying various heresies.

Well congrats to you! I made the leap myself in 2004. Since you’re still cutting your teeth, as it were, I’d like to invite you to read a Vatican 2 document (not terribly long but highly relevant to your post): DECLARATION ON RELIGIOUS FREEDOM
DIGNITATIS HUMANAE

I’ll quote a bit from the document here.

A sense of the dignity of the human person has been impressing itself more and more deeply on the consciousness of contemporary man

Truth, however, is to be sought after in a manner proper to the dignity of the human person and his social nature. The inquiry is to be free, carried on with the aid of teaching or instruction, communication and dialogue, in the course of which men explain to one another the truth they have discovered, or think they have discovered, in order thus to assist one another in the quest for truth.

The declaration of this Vatican Council on the right of man to religious freedom has its foundation in the dignity of the person, whose exigencies have come to be are fully known to human reason through centuries of experience. What is more, this doctrine of freedom has roots in divine revelation, and for this reason Christians are bound to respect it all the more conscientiously. Revelation does not indeed affirm in so many words the right of man to immunity from external coercion in matters religious. It does, however, disclose the dignity of the human person in its full dimensions.

All is to be taken into account-the Christian duty to Christ, the life-giving word which must be proclaimed, the rights of the human person, and the measure of grace granted by God through Christ to men who are invited freely to accept and profess the faith.

If you haven’t encountered this document already, it is well worth the read. All the best to you in your new faith-journey!

 

[Elf01]

But they stay in the parishes. I think the second step is that they eventually leave the Church

The sooner the better.

 

[EndTimes]

I’d only say that Catholicism itself, will never split. It will remain in its integrity until the end of the world. But the visible Church will lose members and is doing it now, sadly - first by people denying the true teachings. But they stay in the parishes. I think the second step is that they eventually leave the Church or, sadly, they have to be excommunicated for a refusal to accept Catholic teaching. So far, the Popes have been tolerant in hopes that Modernists will make their way back over time.

But the day may come when that strategy does not work because the true believers are being persecuted and driven out of the Church by those who are in error. God will not permit that kind of thing to go on for long. He will protect and purify His Church.

YES Bill, on His Church as the Mystical Body of Christ

• The Genuine Temple of God

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The Church’s ultimate trial

**[675] Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.

The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

**The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

**The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

 

[Bill_B_NY]

Anti-modernism can be as heretical as modernism. For every Arian who denied the divinity of Jesus, there was a Docetist or a Monophysite who denied his humanity.

The reaction can be as extreme and wrong in the other direction - yes, true.