Ecumenism and pre-Vatican II dogma

[ComradeAndrei]

One thing always to keep in mind is that the Church does not teach that anyone is saved by their errors. For instance, any Muslims or Buddhists that get to heaven are not there because of their adherence to Islam or Buddhism. Through invincible ignorance and their faithful adherence to the Natural Law written on every human heart, they become members of the Church through an implicit desire for baptism. Only God knows who really and truly are in such a state, but it is possible and we can never despair of the salvation of others nor presume on our own salvation because we are card-carrying Catholics.

Consistent with the teachings of Popes Eugene IV and Boniface VIII, all who will be saved will be so because they are indeed in the bosom of the Church and consistent with the teachings of Popes Pius IX and X, Vatican I and II, and everything else in Catholic doctrine, people do not have to be card-carrying members of the Catholic Church in order to be saved. It all makes sense when taken together and not in soundbites.

Please tell that to Walter Kasper.

While Walter Cardinal Kaspar doesn’t come out spewing fire and brimstone, he doesn’t say the wrong things although they can be a bit overly technical and inaccessible to the average person.

Technically, ecumenism and evangelization are not the same thing. We have no need to “evangelize” Protestants and the Orthodox because they are already Christians. The Orthodox, especially, are in no need of “conversion” (in its precise definition) because they are already followers of Christ with their own Church maintaining Apostolic Succession and valid Sacraments. The Protestants are Christian but maintain no such Church or valid Sacraments so they need more “change” than the Orthodox do.

We need to evangelize the rest of the world (non-Christians) because, well, they don’t have the Gospel and don’t believe in Christ.

So, ecumenism seeks to bring the Church of Christ (which subsists in the Catholic Church) together with those who are imperfectly united with it into a more perfect union with the Catholic Church. Sure, it is easier to talk of “converting” the Protestants to Catholicism amongst ourselves, but I don’t think we’d get too far if we talked like that amongst the Protestants or Orthodox.

But, we can be confident that the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church will never waver or seek compromise with other Churches or ecclesial groups. A false “unity” is not worth a betrayal of the Faith, and is indeed impossible in light of “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.

 

[DesertBrother]

If by questioning, one means dissenting, then this is incorrect. The teaching of Vatican II was guided by the Holy Spirit, even when the magisterium did not intend to promulgated their teaching in a definitive way. Nonetheless, Catholics owe what is called *religiosum obsequium *or religious assent of intellect and will to the authentic teachings of the magisterium. This religious assent of mind and will is incompatible with dissent.

The First Vatican Council decreed:

Pius XII likewise affirmed, with regard to the ordinary teaching of the magisterium:

Dissent is “public opposition to the Magisterium of the Church.” If by “questioning” you do not mean “dissent” but instead refer to one having “serious difficulties, for reasons which appear wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching,” then that is something every Catholic needs to work through faithfulfully, respecting one’s position within the TAUGHT Church, in comparison to those vested by God with magisterial authority as among the TEACHING Church.

Up to the 1980s, there was many various views of theologians who insisted upon a so-called right to “legitimate dissent.” They were answered by the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith in the Instruction on the Vocation of Theologian. I recommend you read through it, as it trumps the contrary theological views leading up to it, including the views of the Notre Dame theologians who authored the 1909 Catholic Encyclopedia. I also recommend Paul VI’s exhortation Paterna cum benevolentia, which also discusses the problem of dissent. It can be read here.

Nonetheless, in response to those you run across who often seem to only trust pre-Vatican II sources, I would cite the following…

St. Thomas Aquinas

St. Catherine of Sienna:

St. Pius X:

Thanks again Dave and CatholicDude, for all you time spent on this thread. You’ve helped me out a lot.
The letter from Padre PIo I posted illustrates the holy obedience of the Saints. Obedience and trust in God.

I need to stop focusing on my own personal dissatisfaction with the current outward expressions of the Church. That is what lead me to start investigating Vatican II in the first place, and in doing so I went in over my head.

Like many others, I long to experience the traditional expressions of Catholic piety and the liturgical solemnity of the past and feel I’ve been robbed of my heritage. I wanted answers as to why things have changed and in many ways heavily deteriorated. I now see that, as CatholicDude stated, it’s actually the influence of the corrupt modern culture on individual clergy that has become the real destructive force. Modern man considers himself enlightened, and so deems the thinking of ages past as inferior. It’s really the other way around. Peace be with you all.
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.