Ecumenism anyone?

[Steven_Merten]

Hananiah:

Because outside the Church there is no salvation. Most of those people are probably in hell.

I do not believe that it was fair for Catholic leaders to drop the bomb of “no salvation outside the Church” on the Lutherans only after the Joint Lutheran Catholic Document was signed. This upset the Lutherans and rightfully so. They sincerly sat down with the Catholics for years to draw up the document. Did the Catholics involved really believe that “no salvation outside the Church” was really not important enough to discuss with the Lutherans when discussing what we must do to go to heaven?

I am not very impressed with the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. In scriptures Jesus is asked, “What must I do to share in everlasting life?” The document never quotes or even remotely talks about Christ’s answers to this question. It has been a while but I think the document quoted or refferenced St. Paul’s writings about 10 times more often than it used our Lord Jesus Christ’s teachings on what we must do to go to heaven. Is ecumenism really worth abandoning Christ’s teachings on what we must to to go to heaven?

JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Les_Richardson]

I was a rebel from my Baptist upbringing. After over 40 years, when I finally gave it up and put my self at the mercy of God, I gave up all my rebellion, and went right back to the source, Jesus Christ and Holy Mother Church.

In my opinion, and after reading and re-reading, Unitatis Redintegratio, Lumen Gentium, Dignitatis Humanae, Gaudium Et Spes, the Church is asking us to have a stance, an attitude of ecumenism more than anything. In UR the Council chastises Catholic faithful for not living a Christian life as we should and states clearly that there can be no ecumenism without a change of heart.

I believe that change of heart has to take place among the separated brethren as well. The entire situation is a product of rebellion. The splits and splintering that have gone on that have produced 25,000+ denominations and variations are a result of the continuing attitude of rebellion, arising from that original rebellion even though non-Catholic Christians today may not even realize it.

I think it is perhaps a mistake to think in terms of groups and organizations. It is the essence of rebellion that no one really speaks for all, the way the Holy Father speaks for us. Unity, I fear, will happen one individual at a time. Perhaps it may grow to a flood as the rebellious come back home. But it is first a realization in the rebellious heart that complete capitulation into the will of God through Jesus Christ means submission to the Church that Christ started and has sustained for 2000 yrs. If anything is held back, unity is doubtful.

That is the meaning of no salvation outside the Church in this context. It’s a hard truth. We must continue to have an open, caring, Christian attitude towards our separated brethren and gently offer them the truth, without compromise. But truly, it requires a conversion on the part of each person.

 

[larryo]

I agree with the post by Les Richardson in #22. The true goal of ecumenism is conversion to the Cathoilc Faith. Anything less than complete conversion is deficient and injurious to the Truth. Real conversion can only be accomplished at the level of the individual person. While it may be good to communicate with other religious organizations, the representatives of the Catholic Church must not let their guard down and compromise on any doctrine of faith. In my experience, excessive familiarity in a social setting such as a meeting or conference with one’s adversaries can lead to a misplaced tolerance for error. Pope Pius XI had it right in his encyclical on ecumenism. The truth is the truth and Catholics–especially the clergy–should not be afraid to proclaim it in all of its fullness.

 

[ServusChristi]

In my humble opinion, the Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on Justification is practically worthless. The document totally emasculates Trent and seeks common ground through semantical equivocations. Catholics and Lutherans aren’t an inch closer to each other on these issues as a result of the document. All it did was create confusion. I can remember the media coverage, “Catholic Church changes position on justification.”

Obviously this is false. However, the fact that the document even gives that appearance shows what a failure it is.

We should all familiarize ourselves with justification as taught by the Holy and Ecumenical Council of Trent. See especially the Sixth Session history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

Conversion of the Lutherans will come through unashamed proclamation of the truths found in Trent.
Peace,
Ryan

 

[RNRobert]

space ghost:

tell you what you do… Love God with all your heart, body, mind, and soul… Love your neighbor as yourself… Live your faith (faithfully), and they will know you are Christian by your love… (make a good song huh.?)… the best ecumenism in the world is a good catholic witness… a lot more witness (by living it) and a lot less judgement as to how someone else should live will go a long way…

I agree with you. We must pull the beam out of our eye before we can see the speck in our neighbors eye. And I have no doubt that there are problably many non-catholics who live holier lives than I do. However, I was not intending to judge how other people live, I was just condemning the false idea that one religion is a as good as another, especially when espoused by some of our church leaders.

 

[RNRobert]

Hananiah:

Because outside the Church there is no salvation. Most of those people are probably in hell.

I think that may be rather harsh. In Pope John Paul II’s book “Crossing the threshold of Hope” He mentions St Seraphim of Sarov, a 19th century Russian Saint. I have a book called the Little Russian Philokalia (*philokalia: *Greek for “love of the good”) which documents his life and writings. He seemed to be a very holy man.:bowdown:

 

[Makerteacher]

True ecumenism does NOT mean we water down our Faith or compromise our beliefs to “make nice” with other denominations. It does mean that we must interact with one another, get to know one another, find our common ground while acknowledging our differences, and most importantly that we strive to get closer to God.

My favorite analogy for this is a diagram. Imagine a triangle, with God at the top point. At the bottom two points, put yourself and any denomination you are currently not connected with, for me I’ll say AOG. As I move closer to God, from the bottom point, I go up the slanted side closer to him. The same is true on the other side of the AOG person as well. As we each grow closer to God, we also end up closer to one another as well. Eventually, when we reach the top, we are united. But if either of us refuses to grow, to move closer to God, to be content with where we are, we will never get any closer to one another at all.

I think the current splits in Christianity are a disgrace to our witness, and weaken our ability to attract others to the Faith, especially when you talk to people outside of Christianity altogether. Jesus prayed that we might be ONE, as He and His Father were one. The Holy Father has written a great deal about TRUE ecumenism, and the links have already been posted to most of those documents, so I won’t repost here.

I am all in favor of true ecumenism and completely opposed to false ecumenism. A false peace is no peace at all.