Ecumenism ... can we make changes happen?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Peter_J
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
There is no avoidance. The question is answered more than adequately. That’s not the problem we have here.

The problem we have here on this thread is
  1. I am not the authority you need to be listening to.
okay
c:
Read the references you’ve been given by a couple different posters here, like the catechism (which you cherry picked), code of canon law which definitively refutes your point of view right in canon numero uno (1).
I didn’t cherry pick. I’m asking you for definitions of terms the CCC uses. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10890500&postcount=46I

I see by your own words you don’t think of yourself as the authority to be listened to. That’s a valid answer.Thank you. I won’t ask you anymore questions
 
No argument there. But you realize, I assume, that no side is completely innocent with regard to proselytizing (“sheep stealing”); not just protestants, but also Orthodox and even Catholics.
But either direction isn’t equally valid. Knowing what you know, could you leave the CC and become Protestant with no grave consequences to your soul? That’s really the question
 
But either direction isn’t equally valid. Knowing what you know, could you leave the CC and become Protestant with no grave consequences to your soul? That’s really the question
Steve,
There are some protestants that hold the exact same view. To not try and “save” a Catholic is contrary to what they believe about what scripture teaches, and what they believe about the CC.

Jon
 
Steve,
There are some protestants that hold the exact same view. To not try and “save” a Catholic is contrary to what they believe about what scripture teaches, and what they believe about the CC.

Jon
My wife likes to say "Do you want to be right, or are we going to have a happy marriage?’. So much of life is about relationship building, starting with commonality and building from there.
 
My wife likes to say "Do you want to be right, or are we going to have a happy marriage?’. So much of life is about relationship building, starting with commonality and building from there.
👍

To the credit of the CC, Vatican II opened the door for Christians of various communions to begin building relationships, find our commonalities (even those hidden by mutual exclusive language usages), and depending on the Holy Spirit to help us build from there.

Jon
 
Steve,
There are some protestants that hold the exact same view. To not try and “save” a Catholic is contrary to what they believe about what scripture teaches, and what they believe about the CC.

Jon
I never said don’t try and save a Protestant. I never said stay away from Protestants. And I don’t do that. But speaking of scripture, and what it teaches, one has to admit, St Paul warned the Church of Rome, stay away from those who cause divisions, they don’t serve Our Lord Jesus but their own appetites… [Rom 16:17…] and we know when Protestantism began and who their founders originally divided from.

Does Paul’s warning have an expiration date? I never saw one. Are the people Paul is talking about, baptised? Yeah, or they wouldn’t be considered dividing or divided from the Church…right? He made that warning much stiffer by the time he talks to the Galatians. He gives the consequences for such a sin. [Gal 5:19-21]

True ecumenism is talking about realities. There is no such thing as seperate but equal on this subject. To leave anyone with the impression that it doesn’t matter where you are just be a good person in where you are, is relativism and indifferentism.
 
I never said don’t try and save a Protestant. I never said stay away from Protestants. And I don’t do that. But speaking of scripture, and what it teaches, one has to admit, St Paul warned the Church of Rome, stay away from those who cause divisions, they don’t serve Our Lord Jesus but their own appetites… [Rom 16:17…] and we know when Protestantism began and who their founders originally divided from.

Does Paul’s warning have an expiration date? I never saw one. Are the people Paul is talking about, baptised? Yeah, or they wouldn’t be considered dividing or divided from the Church…right?
We also know what the Catholic Catechism says, that often enough, men on both sides were to blame. So those who caused our division were on both sides. The issue remains some 500 years later ; how do we solve it?

Jon
 
👍

To the credit of the CC, Vatican II opened the door for Christians of various communions to begin building relationships, find our commonalities (even those hidden by mutual exclusive language usages), and depending on the Holy Spirit to help us build from there.

Jon
Right, many times our differences become occasions of pride and fear, which are not gifts of the Holy Spirit. Somehow we fear “contamination” if we engage other faiths in dialogue, that somehow a conversation with those who disagree with us will dilute our own faith.

But if we really have faith, we need not be threatened by our differences. We can be confident in our faith while being tolerant of other’s beliefs (not the same as capitulation or indifferentism). If we don’t really have faith, we feel the need to stand on our pride and be insistent, rather than a good listener.
 
Originally Posted by Peter J
No argument there. But you realize, I assume, that no side is completely innocent with regard to proselytizing (“sheep stealing”); not just protestants, but also Orthodox and even Catholics.
Agreed, but switching sides isn’t something to be done lightly in either direction.

Actually, you might be happy to hear that this is one area where I’m critical of the Balamand Statement. Well, maybe critical is too strong a word, but I think this section is prone to misunderstanding:
  1. It will also be necessary—on the part of both Churches— that the bishops and all those with pastoral reposibilities in the Churches scrupulously respect the religious liberty of the faithful. In turn, the faithful must be able to express themselves for this purpose. In fact, particularly in situations of conflict, religious liberty requires that the faithful should be able to express their opinion and to decide without pressure from outside if they wish to be in communion either with the Orthodox Church or with the Catholic Church.
I believe the part I highlighted could give the impression that, for people already belonging to either Catholicism or Orthodoxy, switching over to the other side is no big deal – what I sometimes call the “no-fault divorce” attitude toward conversion. There was a great response/commentary by the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation:
  1. The Balamand Document speaks frequently of the “religious freedom of persons” (10) and “the religious liberty of the faithful” (24), of “freedom of conscience” (27) and “respect for consciences” (25), acknowledging “the inviolable freedom of persons and their obligation to follow the requirements of the consciences” (15). The language employed in modern presentations of this theme is familiar enough in the Western world in its concern for human rights, and is certainly not alien to either of our churches. In developing this theme, however, our churches have called attention to the need for a coherent understanding of community and therefore to the need to locate individual rights and responsibilities within the common good. When the Document speaks of “the faithful” and of their religious liberty “to express their opinion and to decide without pressure from outside if they wish to be in communion either with the Orthodox church or with the Catholic church” (24), this distinction becomes crucial. Neither the Orthodox nor the Catholic understanding sees the “faithful” only as referring to an individual Christian apart from community. Rather, we both urge that personhood can only ultimately be grasped in relation to the “Body” and, through the Body, to the tri-personal life of God. Where concern for the solidarity and spiritual health of the community as a whole is absent, the exercise of “freedom” and “liberty” can lead all too easily to the fragmentation of society and to the alienation of persons from each other and from God.
  1. Important in this connection is the Balamand Document’s rejection of the premise that only one of our churches is the unique possessor of the means of grace in such a way that conversion to that church from the other is necessary for salvation. The Document asserts that “on each side it is recognized that what Christ has entrusted to his Church . . . cannot be considered the exclusive property of one of our churches.” (13) To be sure, there may be cases in which conscience leads an Orthodox or a Catholic Christian to enter the other church (cf. 14). This, however, does not mean that our churches should set out to “win converts” by cultivating inappropriate fears and anxieties.
Knowing what you know, could you leave the CC and become Protestant with no grave consequences to your soul? That’s really the question
I don’t think I can answer that with 100% certainty; but I can say that I have no plans to leave Catholicism (either for protestantism or Orthodoxy). :cool:
 
We also know what the Catholic Catechism says, that often enough, men on both sides were to blame. So those who caused our division were on both sides. The issue remains some 500 years later ;** how do we solve it?**

Jon
We solve it by taking action in preparation for the 2017 commemoration of the Reformation with Roman Catholics and other Christians. I posted info about the LWF meeting with Pope Benedict to consider some formal action of reversing Luther’s excommunication and to establish eucharistic hospitality. These things may not happen but I am more and more inclined to believe that Pope Francis could be a huge influence on all the world’s Catholics [Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans].
 
We also know what the Catholic Catechism says, that often enough, men on both sides were to blame. So those who caused our division were on both sides. The issue remains some 500 years later ; how do we solve it?

Jon
Division from Peter has been for 1000 years with the EO, and with the Protestants, 500 years… Have the central issues changed?
 
Division from Peter has been for 1000 years with the EO, and with the Protestants, 500 years… Have the central issues changed?
Actually, some have become more difficult, more complex. One difference now is that there is dialogue ongoing. This hasn’t often been the case.
Jon
 
We also know what the Catholic Catechism says, that often enough, men on both sides were to blame. So those who caused our division were on both sides. The issue remains some 500 years later ; how do we solve it?

Jon
That statement isn’t / wasn’t meant to provide an excuse for those who left the CC and remain so. …
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top