Ecumenism - how to be understood?

[Shlomey]

Here’s my issue: I have been having conversations with a Lutheran theologian who was once already quite close to formally joining the Catholic Church since he noticed what his denomination lacks and somewhat thought that Jesus asked for more in regards to salvation.

My problem is that he read the commentary on Lumen Gentium, the part about ecumenism with protestant bodies and simply added: “!!!”

The quoted part was:

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them.

source:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

How am I to understand that? Thus far, I thought the only valid - yet illegal - sacraments the protestants can offer is the sacrament of baptism due to their old connection to the Catholic Church - as the zeal of baptism may not be erased.

As for “no salvation outside the Church”: I have understood this as being: those who wilfully reject the Catholic Church may not expect salvation. We may not assume that those who are ignorant - not on account of their own - of the Catholic Church are damned per default with certainty.

In that sense, I would have placed the protestants along with Jews, Muslims and non-believers.

But how many protestants do not know of the Catholic Church?

Lumen Gentium seems to state that protestantism offers salvation too.

“It follows that** these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation**. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as** instruments of salvation**, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”

If they lead people away from the Church, I personally would say that they are a hindrance to salvation.

from the Syllabus Errorum of Pope Pius IX:

1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. – Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.

1. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. – Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.

1. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. – Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

1. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. – Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.

And then this is the position I have understood:

#16 says: “For they **who without their own fault do not
know of the Gospel of Christ **and His Church, but yet seek God with sincere
heart, and try, under the influence of grace, to carry out His will in
practice, known to them through the dictate of conscience, can attain
eternal salvation.” John Paul II in his Encyclical on the Missions in #10
says the same [underline added]: “For such people [those who do not
formally enter the Church, as in LG 16] salvation in Christ is accessible
by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the
Church, does not make them part of the Church.”

My problem is that protestants do know of the Gospel of Christ.

and then we have the classic texts:

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Does this not speak of schismatics, i.e. the Orthodoxy and Protestantism?

While I do know that the ones born nowadays have not - for themselves - chosen the heresies, but were rather “born into” their specific communities, I still have the problem that they do have access to the Gospel of Christ.

note: I am not an anti-Vatican II heretic.

I am a Catholic who simply is too dumb to understand the uberly diplomatic words of Lumen Gentium. I prefer things straightforward and clear

 

[Genesis315]

First of all, you need to udnerstand what the Syllabus is before citing it willy nilly. Here’s a good explanation from Cardinal Newman:
newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section7.html

The parts you quoted have to do with rationalist errors denying the necessity of faith and submission to God of mind and will.

Second, all the teaching about about the possibility of non-Catholics being saved is predicated on their being in good faith. One who culpably creates or perpetuates division cannot be saved–such a person is cut off from the Church outside of which there is no salvation. We all have a duty to love God above all things to subordinate our wills to His.

However, the Councils of Florence and Trent defined that even heretics have true Baptisms and Baptism is the door by which we are born again into the Church. Thus, a baptized person who truly seeks to follow the will of God in all things, but is innocently ignorant or mistaken as to certain points of His doctrine, ( and thus is not guilty of willful heresy or schism) is still united to the Church that is subject to the Roman Pontiff and may come to salvation if he perseveres in grace and charity, even if the visible bonds of that union are obscured.

The point of ecumenism is to have all who call themselves Christians partake of Catholic unity in its fullness. The intention to the approach taken (and it is an approach recommended by many Saints) is that you give someone the benefit of the doubt and affirm what is good first, you’re more likely to have success convincing them of the truth where they are wrong. It’s similar to not judging that someone has committed a mortal sin, even though the act is objectively grave.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Shlomey,

The fact that Protestants know the Gospel does not mean that they understand from it that the Catholic Church is the only true Church. Conversion comes from God, and when He calls we must answer. He does not call everyone at the same time and indeed he means for many to remain outside the Church. His plan is not ours.

As for the Syllabus of Pius X, these are quotes from various documents and they should be put in context every time they are quoted.