Ecumenism: Orthodox only?

[Peter_J]

I don’t understand why we have this ‘ecumenism’ with other christians who are not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

Good question … or to be more precise, you gave an answer to the question I’d now like to ask the forum at large:

Should ecumenism be only between us (Catholics) and the Orthodox? Or should we be involved in ecumenism with other Christians as well?

 

[josephback]

Good question … or to be more precise, you gave an answer to the question I’d now like to ask the forum at large:

Should ecumenism be only between us (Catholics) and the Orthodox? Or should we be involved in ecumenism with other Christians as well?

What do the documents of Vatican 2 say?

 

[aspirant]

What do the documents of Vatican 2 say?

Among other things…

The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

 

[MaryT777]

Good question … or to be more precise, you gave an answer to the question I’d now like to ask the forum at large:

Should ecumenism be only between us (Catholics) and the Orthodox? Or should we be involved in ecumenism with other Christians as well?

In my opinion, we should work towards a better understanding of the Faith with other Christians as well. I have several Lutheran friends and we really have enjoyed the
Lutheran/ Catholic dialogue and the signing of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. (Not all Synods of Lutherans signed this to be more accurate Lutheanr World Federation and members there of if I understand correctly)

The Catholic Church did not change its teaching on justification it’s just together the Lutherans have come to a better understanding of what the we profess regarding this issue.

Mary.

I

 

[Lisa1967]

I would like ecumenical dialogue between the Catholic Church and all Christian denominations.

 

[Suslar]

Ecumenism only talks about Christians – where there is unity in Truth and Sanctification. We believe there is certain (“true”) but incomplete union between RCC and other Christians. Ecumenism is about Sacramental reality – not about human relations. What unites us is greater than what divides us and we must act on it and acknowledge Truth where we find it.

Paul XI’s “Circles of Dialog” (taught in seminaries as “The Onion”) starts with the Catholic Church in the center . . . the next layer out is all who believe in Christ . . next is all who believe in God . . .then the rest of humanity on the outside layer…

V2’s theology of ecumenism brings it more into focus:

1. The one Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church
2. Some Truth & sanctification does exist outside the Catholic Church as the Church of Christ is present & operative in those who preserve Apostolic succession (as they have full Sacramental life)
3. Protestant communities are used as means of salvation by the Holy Spirit in those elements preserved from the RCC.

So we SHOULD do all things together EXCEPT those which in conscience we must do separately. For instance, we can pray together, share resources for spiritual life & activity, and share non-Sacramental worship . . .but we cannot yet share the Holy Mass as an “open table” with Protestants as we are not in union. . . at least, not yet!

For more info, you can look up the Directory on the application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism (DAPNE) which was written by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) . . .it’s the 1993 Ecumenical Directory.

 

[MaryT777]

Ecumenism only talks about Christians – where there is unity in Truth and Sanctification. We believe there is certain (“true”) but incomplete union between RCC and other Christians. Ecumenism is about Sacramental reality – not about human relations. What unites us is greater than what divides us and we must act on it and acknowledge Truth where we find it.

Paul XI’s “Circles of Dialog” (taught in seminaries as “The Onion”) starts with the Catholic Church in the center . . . the next layer out is all who believe in Christ . . next is all who believe in God . . .then the rest of humanity on the outside layer…

V2’s theology of ecumenism brings it more into focus:

1. The one Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church
2. Some Truth & sanctification does exist outside the Catholic Church as the Church of Christ is present & operative in those who preserve Apostolic succession (as they have full Sacramental life)
3. Protestant communities are used as means of salvation by the Holy Spirit in those elements preserved from the RCC.

So we SHOULD do all things together EXCEPT those which in conscience we must do separately. For instance, we can pray together, share resources for spiritual life & activity, and share non-Sacramental worship . . .but we cannot yet share the Holy Mass as an “open table” with Protestants as we are not in union. . . at least, not yet!

For more info, you can look up the Directory on the application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism (DAPNE) which was written by the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (PCPCU) . . .it’s the 1993 Ecumenical Directory.

Excellent post. Amen.
Mary.

 

[Indifferently]

Most Protestants will recognise RCs as part of the Church. Some will even recognize the pope as primus inter pares among bishops. EO ecclesiology however says we are all formally outside the Church.

 

[Peter_J]

Nice responses!

In retrospect, perhaps I should have worded the question a bit differently (not a simple yes-or-no question). But I’m glad to see that didn’t prevent rich meaningful responses.

 

[Suslar]

Most Protestants will recognise RCs as part of the Church. Some will even recognize the pope as primus inter pares among bishops. EO ecclesiology however says we are all formally outside the Church.

I think that is true with mainline Protestants - Lutherans, Methodists, etc. It tends to be the “non-denominational” Christians who call Catholics “whore of Babylon” and think we belong to a cult!

 

[MaryT777]

I think that is true with mainline Protestants - Lutherans, Methodists, etc. It tends to be the “non-denominational” Christians who call Catholics “whore of Babylon” and think we belong to a cult!

Yep… Seventh Day Adventists as well. I’m online friends with a SDA poster from years ago and after my hair rose up on end and I had chills I became numb to most of this type of talk.
Amazing…After I got over the Schock of it I became more interested in learning about the Faith of his, SDA.

We did have to decide not to discuss religion anymore for we could not find any common ground unfortunately, but we gave it a shot.

 

[Bklynguy]

Good question … or to be more precise, you gave an answer to the question I’d now like to ask the forum at large:

Should ecumenism be only between us (Catholics) and the Orthodox? Or should we be involved in ecumenism with other Christians as well?

And…to a degree…why do we even practice it with the Eastern Orthodox? The Catholic Church permits Orthodox members to commune with it, but not the other way around (and they are much smaller).

 

[Bklynguy]

And a clarification on my post above–I am not saying we shouldn’t have any dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox, nor do I have anything against them. It’s just that the likelihood of us ever being in communion with them is very remote since they will never accept the supremacy of the Pope, which we require. Likewise, we have opened up communion to them and they haven’t done so. I just see it sort of stalling where it is right now–maybe others could convince me otherwise, though, or point out where I am wrong or misreading something.

 

[Indifferently]

I think that is true with mainline Protestants - Lutherans, Methodists, etc. It tends to be the “non-denominational” Christians who call Catholics “whore of Babylon” and think we belong to a cult!

Speaking as an Anglican, we are generally amenable to recognizing Rome as the prime see, given its historical position in Christendom, as the Patriarchate of the West, and to it for spiritual leadership. The Eastern Orthodox, if you pushed them, would probably say the same (and generally,before the great schism, dis say the same).

The question is about supremacy. Most of the present-day division between Eastern Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics stems from the questioof the papacy - no matter what abstract claims EO theologians will claim - and that must be the principle question addressed on both sides. With Anglicans, the question is about the ordination of women. As with the papacy, women’s ordination is a problem which has led to most of the other heresies nowadays promoted by Anglican groups - but ultimately our hope is in our God to give us the grace to dissolve these political barriers between us, and nothing is impossible with the Lord!

 

[Peter_J]

And…to a degree…why do we even practice it with the Eastern Orthodox? The Catholic Church permits Orthodox members to commune with it, but not the other way around (and they are much smaller).

Well, I guess the answer to that depends how you define “ecumenism” – whether you consider intercommunion to be a necessary element of it.

 

[Nicea325]

I would like ecumenical dialogue between the Catholic Church and all Christian denominations.

All Christian denominations? Far to many and far to many divisions amongst themselves. The CC I am sure works with the larger Protestant denominations.

 

[Peter_J]

All Christian denominations? Far to many and far to many divisions amongst themselves. The CC I am sure works with the larger Protestant denominations.

Well yeah. If, say, two congregations break-off from a denomination and declared themselves to be a new denomination, I would hope that we wouldn’t have to set up a new commission to dialogue with that new denomination.

 

[Schism_hater]

Most Protestants will recognise RCs as part of the Church. Some will even recognize the pope as primus inter pares among bishops. EO ecclesiology however says we are all formally outside the Church.

Lest people here misunderstand, Orthodoxy does not maintain that those who are non-Orthodox are necessarily deprived of grace or damned. All Orthodox recognize the possibility of grace outside of the Orthodox Church, and I daresay that most believe that grace and salvation do exist outside the Orthodox Church.

 

[Suslar]

Lest people here misunderstand, Orthodoxy does not maintain that those who are non-Orthodox are necessarily deprived of grace or damned. All Orthodox recognize the possibility of grace outside of the Orthodox Church, and I daresay that most believe that grace and salvation do exist outside the Orthodox Church.

Very good point!

And, Ecumenism is between all Christians.