Ecumenism, Reunification of Protestants and the Church

[CutlerB]

From 1 to 5 May, we had the Deutscher Evangelischer Kirchentag, in English one could call it German Protestant Church-day in Hamburg, Germany. Tens of thousands of people came, as every year, and seemed to have had a jolly good time.

The Catholic Archdiocese of Hamburg also hosted some events around their cathedral, mostly ecumenical services and forums for discussion. Although I couldn’t attend those, I watched the video recordings of them. The first forum was entitled “Chances for Ecumenism” with Auxiliary Bishop Dr Hans-Jochen Jaschke, and the second didn’t really have a name but was more general and had Archbishop Dr Werner Thissen as guest.

During the first round, Bishop Jaschke gave his view of how one could achieve greater unity among the parties (I do not count Catholicism as a denomination, so I will avoid the word). He said quite a few things of course, but I shall list the ones here that I found notable. I’ll give my thoughts on them afterwards.

1. 
   *]The Bishop believes that Lutheranism and Catholicism are easiest to reconcile among the various traditions, as opposed to i.e. the Reformed churches. He states that Lutherans would probably the quickest of all others to mention the Pope during their prayers in services and accept the office of Peter.
   *]It is not his view that all non-Catholic Christians should subject to the Pope, but rather agree on what is essential.
   *]According to the Bishop, it is a pity that a re-publication of the joint translation (Einheitsübersetzung) of the Bible between Lutherans and Catholics failed, as the Catholics wanted it approved by the Pope, but the Lutherans didn’t. He sees some fault on both sides.
   
   As promised, my two cents are these:
   1. I’d agree with His Excellency in saying that Lutheranism and Catholicism can be brought back together easiest. There’s still a lot to talk about, but they are probably a lot closer together than others. Baptism for example, and some sense of the Eucharist.
   2. To be honest, I think reunification is only possible if all of them subject to the Pope. Essentials are an awkward thing to talk about, since one needs someone to define what those are. And obviously the Bishop acknowledges that, since he would otherwise not have seen the need to reunite. If no one defines them, you basically already have unity, since all the doctrines that make one Christian (Trinity, etc.) are the ground for that unity.
   3. For the joint translation: That would obviously cause problems. I agree with the desire to have it approved by the Pope, and also understand that the Lutherans don’t like that.
   I’d like to mention what my view on reunification is: It’s very desirable, but not at the expense of Catholic doctrine, nor of chaos. Certainly not at all costs. I believe that all who have split from the Catholic Church have no right to demand anything of her. Since one is not founding a “new ecumenical Church”, it follows that all would have to join in the One True Church. It must be determined which one that is, and I think almost all non-Catholic denominations would agree that the Catholic Church is the oldest. Therefore, it is on her conditions that one can join. She sets the terms, and for me that includes unconditional submission to the Pope in the sense as Catholics do.
   
   I look forward to your views on the Bishop’s comments and general opinions.

 

[JonNC]

Cutler,
If you have a link, that would be great!

From 1 to 5 May, we had the Deutscher Evangelischer Kirchentag, in English one could call it German Protestant Church-day in Hamburg, Germany. Tens of thousands of people came, as every year, and seemed to have had a jolly good time.

The Catholic Archdiocese of Hamburg also hosted some events around their cathedral, mostly ecumenical services and forums for discussion. Although I couldn’t attend those, I watched the video recordings of them. The first forum was entitled “Chances for Ecumenism” with Auxiliary Bishop Dr Hans-Jochen Jaschke, and the second didn’t really have a name but was more general and had Archbishop Dr Werner Thissen as guest.

During the first round, Bishop Jaschke gave his view of how one could achieve greater unity among the parties (I do not count Catholicism as a denomination, so I will avoid the word). He said quite a few things of course, but I shall list the ones here that I found notable. I’ll give my thoughts on them afterwards.

1. 
   *]The Bishop believes that Lutheranism and Catholicism are easiest to reconcile among the various traditions, as opposed to i.e. the Reformed churches. He states that Lutherans would probably the quickest of all others to mention the Pope during their prayers in services and accept the office of Peter.
   *]It is not his view that all non-Catholic Christians should subject to the Pope, but rather agree on what is essential.
   *]According to the Bishop, it is a pity that a re-publication of the joint translation (Einheitsübersetzung) of the Bible between Lutherans and Catholics failed, as the Catholics wanted it approved by the Pope, but the Lutherans didn’t. He sees some fault on both sides.
   
   As promised, my two cents are these:
   1. I’d agree with His Excellency in saying that Lutheranism and Catholicism can be brought back together easiest. There’s still a lot to talk about, but they are probably a lot closer together than others. Baptism for example, and some sense of the Eucharist.
   2. To be honest, I think reunification is only possible if all of them subject to the Pope. Essentials are an awkward thing to talk about, since one needs someone to define what those are. And obviously the Bishop acknowledges that, since he would otherwise not have seen the need to reunite. If no one defines them, you basically already have unity, since all the doctrines that make one Christian (Trinity, etc.) are the ground for that unity.
   3. For the joint translation: That would obviously cause problems. I agree with the desire to have it approved by the Pope, and also understand that the Lutherans don’t like that.
   I’d like to mention what my view on reunification is: It’s very desirable, but not at the expense of Catholic doctrine, nor of chaos. Certainly not at all costs. I believe that all who have split from the Catholic Church have no right to demand anything of her. Since one is not founding a “new ecumenical Church”, it follows that all would have to join in the One True Church. It must be determined which one that is, and I think almost all non-Catholic denominations would agree that the Catholic Church is the oldest. Therefore, it is on her conditions that one can join. She sets the terms, and for me that includes unconditional submission to the Pope in the sense as Catholics do.
   
   I look forward to your views on the Bishop’s comments and general opinions.

1. 
   I would very much like to know what the reasons are for the Lutherans not wanting papal approval for a common translation between us.
   
   Jon

 

[Indifferently]

His Excellency? You truly are Roman Catholic in heart. We say His Grace, even for their bishops.

 

[CutlerB]

Cutler,
If you have a link, that would be great!

I would very much like to know what the reasons are for the Lutherans not wanting papal approval for a common translation between us.

Jon

It’s German, is that OK?

Here’s the first one: youtube.com/watch?v=KjwdvhFAiHY
And the Archbishop: youtube.com/watch?v=4u5L4edZCpw

His Excellency? You truly are Roman Catholic in heart. We say His Grace, even for their bishops.

Deary me, I’d been waiting for you. We say Seine Exzellenz in Germany, therefore I’m more used to that. I am well aware that the address is different in Britain.

 

[Indifferently]

As for reunification, reunificationRoman Catholics must affirm the absolute authority of the Bishop of Rome, and that total and utter subjection to the Papacy (which since the mid 19th century has been infallible too, but only in certain cases!) is the major prerequisite to Church unity. Of course, it’s unfortunate that Rome and the Eastern Orthodox have mutually exclusive ecclesiologies (We’re the true Church! No, we’re the true Church!) so progress is going to be a little slow.

As for me, I will simply lean on the Church Fathers and seven ecumenical councils for as long as I am able to remain in the Church of England and do so. The Prayer Book contains the whole truth of the Catholic Faith, so I will use it as my shield and hope that church unity one day proceeds on the basis of what is written therein.

 

[JonNC]

It’s German, is that OK?

Here’s the first one: youtube.com/watch?v=KjwdvhFAiHY
And the Archbishop: youtube.com/watch?v=4u5L4edZCpw

Deary me, I’d been waiting for you. We say Seine Exzellenz in Germany, therefore I’m more used to that. I am well aware that the address is different in Britain.

LOL. No, I don’t speak German, but maybe from there I can find a translation.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[CutlerB]

As for reunification, reunificationRoman Catholics must affirm the absolute authority of the Bishop of Rome, and that total and utter subjection to the Papacy (which since the mid 19th century has been infallible too, but only in certain cases!) is the major prerequisite to Church unity. Of course, it’s unfortunate that Rome and the Eastern Orthodox have mutually exclusive ecclesiologies (We’re the true Church! No, we’re the true Church!) so progress is going to be a little slow.

As for me, I will simply lean on the Church Fathers and seven ecumenical councils for as long as I am able to remain in the Church of England and do so. The Prayer Book contains the whole truth of the Catholic Faith, so I will use it as my shield and hope that church unity one day proceeds on the basis of what is written therein.

Indeed, it is going slow, but better slow than not at all. The differences are a lot smaller than with Protestantism, so we may see that come about quicker!

LOL. No, I don’t speak German, but maybe from there I can find a translation.

Thanks,
Jon

Alright.

 

[Indifferently]

Indeed, it is going slow, but better slow than not at all. The differences are a lot smaller than with Protestantism, so we may see that come about quicker!

What do you mean by Protestantism? Classic Anglicanism is much closer to Orthodoxy than RC is. Indeed, before the “ordination” of women Orthodox laypeople could obtain permission from their bishops to communicate in Anglican parishes.

 

[CutlerB]

What do you mean by Protestantism? Classic Anglicanism is much closer to Orthodoxy than RC is. Indeed, before the “ordination” of women Orthodox laypeople could obtain permission from their bishops to communicate in Anglican parishes.

I mean – averaged of course – everything that came out of the Reformation. Could you define “Classical Anglicanism”?

 

[Indifferently]

I mean – averaged of course – everything that came out of the Reformation. Could you define “Classical Anglicanism”?

The faith of the Book of Common Prayer. Scriptural, patristic and firmly rooted in the catholic consensus of the Universal Church. Here is a lot of excellent essays on it:
anglicancontinuum.blogspot.co.uk/p/fr-harts-essays-on-classic-anglicanism.html

 

[CutlerB]

The faith of the Book of Common Prayer. Scriptural, patristic and firmly rooted in the catholic consensus of the Universal Church. Here is a lot of excellent essays on it:
anglicancontinuum.blogspot.co.uk/p/fr-harts-essays-on-classic-anglicanism.html

Thanks. However, when you say Classical Anglicanism, that sounds like that the CofE has left that path, as it does not unanimously hold to that anymore, to me.

 

[wllmjoseph]

As for reunification, reunificationRoman Catholics must affirm the absolute authority of the Bishop of Rome, and that total and utter subjection to the Papacy (which since the mid 19th century has been infallible too, but only in certain cases!) is the major prerequisite to Church unity. Of course, it’s unfortunate that Rome and the Eastern Orthodox have mutually exclusive ecclesiologies (We’re the true Church! No, we’re the true Church!) so progress is going to be a little slow.

As for me, I will simply lean on the Church Fathers and seven ecumenical councils for as long as I am able to remain in the Church of England and do so. The Prayer Book contains the whole truth of the Catholic Faith, so I will use it as my shield and hope that church unity one day proceeds on the basis of what is written therein.

 It would truly be a great grace for the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church to reconciled and to become one.  The two churches share so much in common.  The stumbling block will be papal authority.  I do not believe that at the present time the majority of Lutherans are willing to accept the Church's teaching on birth control.  Initially is was the Anglican church that was so proactive in becoming more progressive and "modern".  In the last couple of years the Lutheran church has also fallen into the pitfall of Moral Reativiism.  Looking at both denominations it appears at times that the two denominations are currently in a race with one another to determine which one in the most progressive or "modern"

 That being said I do belive that there is an opportunity to reach out the Lutherans.  It is my belief that just as Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI formed the Anglican Ordianate for those Anglicans who has been disenfranchised from the Anlican Church that Pope Francis should create a Lutheran Ordinate for those Lutherans who has been disenfranchised from the Lutheran Church or who desitre to be in union with the Pope and Holy Mother Church.

 

[CutlerB]

It would truly be a great grace for the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church to reconciled and to become one. The two churches share so much in common. The stumbling block will be papal authority. I do not believe that at the present time the majority of Lutherans are willing to accept the Church’s teaching on birth control. Initially is was the Anglican church that was so proactive in becoming more progressive and “modern”. In the last couple of years the Lutheran church has also fallen into the pitfall of Moral Reativiism. Looking at both denominations it appears at times that the two denominations are currently in a race with one another to determine which one in the most progressive or “modern”

 That being said I do belive that there is an opportunity to reach out the Lutherans.  It is my belief that just as Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI formed the Anglican Ordianate for those Anglicans who has been disenfranchised from the Anlican Church that Pope Francis should create a Lutheran Ordinate for those Lutherans who has been disenfranchised from the Lutheran Church or who desitre to be in union with the Pope and Holy Mother Church.

I agree with the first part. Do you think there are many Lutherans who would cross that bridge? I find it hard to imagine somehow…

 

[EvangelCatholic]

It’s German, is that OK?

Here’s the first one: youtube.com/watch?v=KjwdvhFAiHY
And the Archbishop: youtube.com/watch?v=4u5L4edZCpw

Deary me, I’d been waiting for you. We say Seine Exzellenz in Germany, therefore I’m more used to that. I am well aware that the address is different in Britain.

One observation is that both Roman Catholic archbishops dress in civilian clothing like Lutheran bishops often do.

 

[JonNC]

I agree with the first part. Do you think there are many Lutherans who would cross that bridge? I find it hard to imagine somehow…

Much would depend on what it looks like, ISTM, as one who would honestly look at that path. In part, some questions such as:

1. What can we bring with us?
   a) liturgy and music?
   b) Augsburg Confession (which Cr. Ratzinger once mused as being a Catholic
   confession)?
2. What expressions of our faith would be considered “compatible” with Catholic teaching?
   a) sacramental union?
   b) the nature of cleansing at death

There are other things, as well.

Jon

 

[Indifferently]

Thanks. However, when you say Classical Anglicanism, that sounds like that the CofE has left that path, as it does not unanimously hold to that anymore, to me.

I totally agree. The C of E has abandoned its own heritage in favour of secularism and political correctness. I eagerly await the emergence of a Continuing movement in this country.

 

[CutlerB]

One observation is that both Roman Catholic archbishops dress in civilian clothing like Lutheran bishops often do.

The Archbishop often wears the more formal (for lack of the correct word…) dress, but I have never seen Bishop Jaschke wear that.

Much would depend on what it looks like, ISTM, as one who would honestly look at that path. In part, some questions such as:

1. What can we bring with us?
   a) liturgy and music?
   b) Augsburg Confession (which Cr. Ratzinger once mused as being a Catholic
   confession)?
2. What expressions of our faith would be considered “compatible” with Catholic teaching?
   a) sacramental union?
   b) the nature of cleansing at death

There are other things, as well.

Jon

Thanks.

I totally agree. The C of E has abandoned its own heritage in favour of secularism and political correctness. I eagerly await the emergence of a Continuing movement in this country.

I agree! In what country are you, may I ask?

 

[wllmjoseph]

I agree with the first part. Do you think there are many Lutherans who would cross that bridge? I find it hard to imagine somehow…

Initially there may not be many Lutherans at this time that would "cross that bridge". Thinking about it in some more detail forming a Lutheran Ordinariate will be seen a provacative to most Lutherans. I would change what I intitially stated about forming a Lutheran Ordinariate to forming a Lutheran Ordinariate in the event that there is a request for a Luthern Ordinariate from Lutherans who desire to be be in union with the Pope. :thumbsup:

 

[JonNC]

Initially there may not be many Lutherans at this time that would “cross that bridge”. Thinking about it in some more detail forming a Lutheran Ordinariate will be seen a provacative to most Lutherans. I would change what I intitially stated about forming a Lutheran Ordinariate to forming a Lutheran Ordinariate in the event that there is a request for a Luthern Ordinariate from Lutherans who desire to be be in union with the Pope.

I think that is what has been said by Rome, a Lutheran Ordinariate would need to come at the request of Lutherans. There are some European Lutherans who have already stated their disapproval of a Catholic-initiated Ordinariate proposal, AFAIK.

Jon

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I don’t think that full unity is ever something that will be achieved. Of course with God all things are possible, but it doesn’t mean it will happen. I don’t think it should be necessarily something that we pursue, either. We should definitely work for cooperation, and assistance with each other in times of persecution, and when secular governments attempt to infringe on religious liberties. But with regards to full communion - it’s not likely.