Ecumenism, Reunification of Protestants and the Church

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Indifferently;10734714]As for reunification, reunificationRoman Catholics must affirm the absolute authority of the Bishop of Rome, and that total and utter subjection to the Papac
How can one seek re-unification with language you have implied to exist in the Roman church, that does not exist such as you have stated above; “must affirm the absulte authority of the Bishop of Rome”? That is a misleading statement. “total and utter subjection to the Papacy”? I don’t find one Roman Catholic who believes such a statement. You have been misinformed about what Jesus has established in his Church. All Roman Catholics follow and give witness to what Jesus commands, teaches and built his Church upon Peter and his apostles. Your language is foreign to our Roman Catholic apostolic faith in Jesus Christ.
(which since the mid 19th century has been infallible too, but only in certain cases!) is the major prerequisite to Church unity.
Roman Catholics follow Jesus “infallible statements” here, not men. When Jesus told the apostles “When they hear you, they hear me”. When Jesus commissioned the apostles to forgive sins, do you reject Jesus infallible statements? When Jesus gave Peter the keys to bind and loose on earth, Jesus promises never to leave Peter here, because when the Popes follow Jesus commands, Jesus will bind and loose in heaven. This union between Jesus and Peter is never broken, that is what prevents the Pope’s from teaching error (infallible) because Jesus himself is with Peter always in the binding and loosing. The only case you speak of, is when the Pope’s speak “ex-Cathedra” from the chair of Peter. Any thing else, you have fallen for an illusion that does not exist in the Roman Catholic church.
Of course, it’s unfortunate that Rome and the Eastern Orthodox have mutually exclusive ecclesiologies (We’re the true Church! No, we’re the true Church!) so progress is going to be a little slow.
The Roman Catholic Church has only adhered to Jesus Christ when he speaks infallibly to Peter. Mt.16;16-18, Jn.21:15-17. Every Pope in all Church history can trace it’s apostolic union with Peter unbroken to the time of Christ. The disunity you speak of between East and West deals with Jesus commands and commissioning of Peter, not necessarily the Obedience of the Roman Church being faithful to Jesus commissioning of Peter.

Remember recorded history proves that all of the Eastern Catholic Church’s have fallen in and out of heresy, the only apostolic see that has never taught heresy is the bishop’s of Rome, thus Jesus words to Peter alone come to pass, “The gates of hell will come against you, Peter, but the gates of hell will never prevail”. Jesus has kept his word upon building his church on Peter.
As for me, I will simply lean on the Church Fathers
If you follow the early church fathers who wrote before the seven councils you adhere too, all of them are holding the Bishop’s of Rome Peter’s apostolic successor in high esteem and pre-eminent to which all church’s are to follow.
and seven ecumenical councils for as long as I am able to remain in the Church of England and do so.
You do know how difficult it was for all these councils to be approved by the bishop of Rome? Although most of these councils settled the Eastern Heretics and heresies that affected the Church in the East, not necessarily in the West. The Eastern Emperor’s required the Popes approval. To be clear here, most of these 7 ecumenical councils never attach themselves to your Western Christian faith, for the exception of the result which is the Nicene Creed, the Trinity, Mary Mother of God (theotokos), and each one in succession kept approving what the previous council approved with new terminology and new faith expressions.

Yet when the Pope’s and councils in the west did the same without ever changing any of Jesus commands and commissioning of Peter, you object to this apostolic faith, and yet accept only the 7 councils approved by the Pope’s that almost had nothing to do with the West. Because we were not infected with these Eastern Catholic heresies for example Nestorius.
The Prayer Book contains the whole truth of the Catholic Faith, so I will use it as my shield and hope that church unity one day proceeds on the basis of what is written therein.
Correction; Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, Peter and the apostolic successors which makes up the Church that possesses the Pillar and foundation of Truth see 1Tim.3:15. Not a prayer book.

We can reach for re-unification when we have mutual understanding and correct interpretations of what each side believes.

Peace be with you
 
I don’t think that full unity is ever something that will be achieved. Of course with God all things are possible, but it doesn’t mean it will happen. I don’t think it should be necessarily something that we pursue, either. We should definitely work for cooperation, and assistance with each other in times of persecution, and when secular governments attempt to infringe on religious liberties. But with regards to full communion - it’s not likely.
I have hope, re-unification came to realization between the East and Western Catholic Church communities while Peace seeking Catholic Emperor’s ruled in the Eastern Church. When these Eastern Emperors became heretical, pagan, schismatics, drunkards, we find the Church in disunity again.

Peace be with you
 
Lest all this talk of the evils of the heretical Eastern Christians become too one-sided, I would like to point out that the West has had its own share of problems with heresy: Sabellianism, Novatianism, Donatism, Pelagianism, Catharism, and heresies concerning the Eucharist quickly come to mind. Furthermore, while it arose in the East, Arianism thrived in the West for centuries after it was extinguished in the East.
 
Lest all this talk of the evils of the heretical Eastern Christians become too one-sided, I would like to point out that the West has had its own share of problems with heresy: Sabellianism, Novatianism, Donatism, Pelagianism, Catharism, and heresies concerning the Eucharist quickly come to mind. Furthermore, while it arose in the East, Arianism thrived in the West for centuries after it was extinguished in the East.
Amen, the gates of hell came against the rock of Peter and has never and will never prevail against it.This is a divine promise from Jesus to Peter. All others the gates of hell prevailed except this one.

Peace be with you
 
So, we’ve all heard of Anglo-Papalists (or Anglo-Papists) – not that there are very many of them of course; but is there an equivalent among Lutherans? I’ve never heard of one. (“Luthero-Papists” perhaps?)
 
So, we’ve all heard of Anglo-Papalists (or Anglo-Papists) – not that there are very many of them of course; but is there an equivalent among Lutherans? I’ve never heard of one. (“Luthero-Papists” perhaps?)
I think, generally not, except perhaps as an accusation as opposed to a description. 😃
However, I did recently have a pastor ask me if I came out of the “Roman” tradition ( not using Roman as a slur). I told him no, but failed to mention my status here at CAF. 😉
Some of us are thought of as “Romanized”, I guess.

Jon
 
I think, generally not, except perhaps as an accusation as opposed to a description. 😃
:rotfl:

Yeah, I don’t think there’s such a category as “Luthero-Papalist”. That’s another reason I’m a bit skeptical of let’s-start-a-Lutheran-ordinariate-so-Lutherans-will-become-Catholic ideas.
 
CutlerB;10734620]
As promised, my two cents are these:
  1. I’d agree with His Excellency in saying that Lutheranism and Catholicism can be brought back together easiest. There’s still a lot to talk about, but they are probably a lot closer together than others. Baptism for example, and some sense of the Eucharist.
It is a difficult concept for one to grasp for re-unification or unity among all the different Christian communities out of communion and have rejected the magestirium and sacraments of the Church. Each one believes has just cause for there departure of the Catholic faith.

Jesus had this problem also; a division so great between Jews and Gentiles does not compare to the existing disunity Jesus faced for all humanity.

How did Jesus solve that enmity dividing wall that eternally separated the Jews from the Gentiles? He suffered and died for them, making himself the joining chasm of his flesh and blood that makes them one united in Jesus body, blood, soul and divnity, to become partakers of his divinity so as to be united as one , where there is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free person. Jesus removed that dividing wall that caused the division between Jew and Gentile making them one in Himself.

You said it, it is baptism and the Eucharist that unites us and makes us one. Not our politics, culture and social leanings of the Church.

But who is ready to die for this cause of unity? as Jesus did; Who is ready to surrender and die to self pride so that Jesus body can be one faith, one baptism, in One Lord. Not the many.

The question of when and how can re-unification happen? Jesus already paid the price for this unification and it still stands just as powerful today.

If those who do not know Jesus in this way, should make an effort to come to know Jesus in his true presence via the sacraments. If those who are already in full communion with Jesus body via the sacraments. Then we have to follow our Master and love our enemy and die to self and give to God what belongs to God and give to the Ceasars what belongs to the Ceasars.

Recommended reading St.Frances de Sales “Devout Life”.

Peace be with you
 
I think I have experienced considerable unification of Roman Catholics and Lutherans throughout my life. Maybe I have a different perspective due to circumstance and since contributing to ‘Catholic Answers’ have been surprised by those who unfavorably view such unity. Perhaps religious communities are less restricted and more open to seeking commonalty and inclusion. I have been immensely blessed by making retreats such as cursillos in Roman Catholic, Episcopal and Lutheran convents/ monasteries. Praying together and sharing the Eucharist is incredibly breathtaking inspiration; the tears in the eyes of all present signifies the immensity of this communion with Christ, our Lord.
 
I think I have experienced considerable unification of Roman Catholics and Lutherans throughout my life. Maybe I have a different perspective due to circumstance and since contributing to ‘Catholic Answers’ have been surprised by those who unfavorably view such unity. Perhaps religious communities are less restricted and more open to seeking commonalty and inclusion. I have been immensely blessed by making retreats such as cursillos in Roman Catholic, Episcopal and Lutheran convents/ monasteries. Praying together and sharing the Eucharist is incredibly breathtaking inspiration; the tears in the eyes of all present signifies the immensity of this communion with Christ, our Lord.
Not meaning to diminish your experience, but I have to wonder if intercommunion isn’t a kind of false-ecumenism or neo-unitiasm. :o

In other words, is it ecumenism or is it Catholics becoming protestantized?
 
It is a difficult concept for one to grasp for re-unification or unity among all the different Christian communities out of communion and have rejected the magestirium and sacraments of the Church. Each one believes has just cause for there departure of the Catholic faith.
In my experience, most believe that *they *didn’t depart from the Catholic faith, others did.
 
In my experience, most believe that *they *didn’t depart from the Catholic faith, others did.
In my previous post I did include those who are out of communion with one another as well as those who rejected and moved away from the Catholic church.

One almost has to take a case by case study and not generalize the different Christian faiths into one category, which makes for re-unification not impossible but difficult.

Ecumenical efforts are done with those sharing the same faith and ideals to inlude those out of communion with one another. Ecumenism is different for those who may require evangelization not ecumenism and still others a conversion not neccessarily a re-unification.

Peace be with you
 
Not meaning to diminish your experience, but I have to wonder if intercommunion isn’t a kind of false-ecumenism or neo-unitiasm. :o

In other words, is it ecumenism or is it Catholics becoming protestantized?
Or vice-Versa?
 
According to the Bishop, it is a pity that a re-publication of the joint translation (Einheitsübersetzung) of the Bible between Lutherans and Catholics failed, as the Catholics wanted it approved by the Pope, but the Lutherans didn’t. He sees some fault on both sides.
This statement strikes me a truly odd, since as far as I know the Vatican doesn’t approve or disapprove of specific translations of the Bible. Maybe because this was a special project, the Catholics involved wanted special approval? I don’t think the Vatican would ever do that, so it seems that this would be a doomed project from the start. I wonder what I’m missing here.
 
The Common Lectionary has been practiced for many years by Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans; even Methodists, Presbyterians etc. It is comforting to know the readings at Mass are the same in each of these denominations.
 
The Common Lectionary has been practiced for many years by Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans; even Methodists, Presbyterians etc. It is comforting to know the readings at Mass are the same in each of these denominations.
Really! I never knew that? Do the Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodist, Presbyterians follow the Roman Latin three year liturgical calender that comprises of the same scriptural readings world wide in the Catholic Church?

If the liturgical calender is not followed by these protestants, who determines their Sunday readings?
 
Really! I never knew that? Do the Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodist, Presbyterians follow the Roman Latin three year liturgical calender that comprises of the same scriptural readings world wide in the Catholic Church?

If the liturgical calender is not followed by these protestants, who determines their Sunday readings?
In the Anglican parish I attend, most often our readings are the same as in Catholic churches. There could be slight differences.
 
Really! I never knew that? Do the Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodist, Presbyterians follow the Roman Latin three year liturgical calender that comprises of the same scriptural readings world wide in the Catholic Church?

If the liturgical calender is not followed by these protestants, who determines their Sunday readings?
Yes the 3 yr Lectionary called the Revised Common Lectionary is followed by the majority of Christians who adhere to the ecumenical creeds [Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian]. Some Lutherans and Orthodox use the old one yr cycle called the Historic Lectionary; also the Byzantine lectionary/ calendar among Eastern Orthodox. There is also the daily Lectionary which is a 2 yr cycle that Roman Catholic, Anglicans and Lutherans use for the Daily Office. All are the same readings for each church.
 
Yes the 3 yr Lectionary called the Revised Common Lectionary is followed by the majority of Christians who adhere to the ecumenical creeds [Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian]. Some Lutherans and Orthodox use the old one yr cycle called the Historic Lectionary; also the Byzantine lectionary/ calendar among Eastern Orthodox. There is also the daily Lectionary which is a 2 yr cycle that Roman Catholic, Anglicans and Lutherans use for the Daily Office. All are the same readings for each church.
Ok, I think I’m a little confused here. I pray the daily office. But do your memorials, feast days, saint day celebrations mirror the Roman Catholic’s lectionary calender?

Are you saying each church uses their own lectionary base readings is conformity to unity?

Or are you implying that all protestant church’s you mentioned without including the Orthodox church’s that’s a different subject; follow the same liturgical calender readings as the Roman Catholic Church?
 
In the Anglican parish I attend, most often our readings are the same as in Catholic churches. There could be slight differences.
That’s great, do you follow the Catholic lenten season and readings?
 
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