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Don_Ruggero
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That would be delightful. The problem is that I would not have enough time to tell that many years of stories.
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pnewton
Guest
No it is not. However, it does make the point that Protestants are not baptized “into the Catholic Church” as people keep claiming, and was one of three pieces of evidence I gave to support that.
For all the talk about avoiding ecumenism at the expense of the truth, there sure are a lot that are clinging to the lie that Protestants of today are heretics. So is it really a matter of truth, or smug superiority? Being a Catholic and having the Sacraments and the fullness of truth is nothing to feel superior about. It is something that should fill us with fear of the Lord, knowing he will hold us to the highest standard.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
Do you barrack for the pies, Josh? …
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pnewton
Guest
I have quoted both St. John Paul and Pope Francis. I did not know of this quote by Pope Benedict. You know, if I found myself at odd with the all of the Popes in my life time (or time as a Catholic) I would at least question my position. (which has actually happened for me on one issue.)
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NuclearReceptor
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Was Luther’s excommunication ever lifted? (Is it possible after death?)
He may have asked the right questions and sincerely sought after Christ, but he started a terrible chain reaction leading countless people astray.
Then excommunicated heretic as declared by the Church.
Is the Church celebrating his beginning spiritual inquiry while condemning his final latter actions?
(Is it true he left a note on his deathbed rejecting the Church and Mass?)
He may have asked the right questions and sincerely sought after Christ, but he started a terrible chain reaction leading countless people astray.
Then excommunicated heretic as declared by the Church.
Is the Church celebrating his beginning spiritual inquiry while condemning his final latter actions?
(Is it true he left a note on his deathbed rejecting the Church and Mass?)
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angel12
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How can amicable discussions with fellow Christians be “a waste of time?” How can better understanding of each other be “a waste of time?”
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christofirst
Guest
Our pastor emeritus said the Mass last night for the Vigil of All Saints, and since he was also involved for many years in ecumenical work for the archdiocese, he made mention of the 500th anniversary of Luther’s act at the end of his homily. He neither praised nor demonized Luther, but he did remind us all of the power and potential of our own individual lives and actions. One man in effect fractured the Church, and our efforts since then toward reunion have been, in our old pastor’s words, “slow and painful.”
My dad was Lutheran and my mom is Catholic, so mine was, I suppose, an ecumenical family. In our case, the Catholic side more or less won out. All of us kids were raised Catholic, and Dad even went with us to Mass for many years, though in the end he never saw fit to convert.
My dad was Lutheran and my mom is Catholic, so mine was, I suppose, an ecumenical family. In our case, the Catholic side more or less won out. All of us kids were raised Catholic, and Dad even went with us to Mass for many years, though in the end he never saw fit to convert.
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josh987654321
Guest
Because commemorating (as others have admitted, really celebrating) Martin Luther and the reformation with Protestants is not an amicable discussion.
Commemorating (as has been admitted to, celebrating) the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s schism from the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and his 95 theses condemning the Mass does not help better understand each other, it does the exact opposite.
God Bless
Thank you for reading.
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angel12
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The OP referenced “meetings” in general, not just the commemoration. I specifically said “amicable discussions” and “understanding.” Your objections to those is . . .?
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josh987654321
Guest
The commemoration/celebration of the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther, which does none of those things other then create scandal and heresy within our own Church.
God Bless
Thank you for reading.
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niceatheist
Guest
The Church had plenty of warnings prior to Luther’s 95 Theses that there was trouble brewing in Northern Europe. First of all, there was the longstanding grievances by some German princes at what they viewed as Rome’s interference within their jurisdictions (like the Investiture Controversy and other excommunications of various princes).
Then there was the forceable suppression of other other pre-Protestant reformist movements (ie.the Hussites) and other more blatant heterodox movements (the Cathars).
The Church had spent a thousand years after the Fall of Rome using its significant political power, sometimes, maybe even most of the time for good, but also to its own benefit. Ultimately what made the Reformation fly was several northern European rulers seeing the opportunity to rid themselves of what at the time was a meddlesome, and let’s be perfectly honest, very corrupt Church. One cannot assert moral authority when one is so personally deficient in it.
Then there was the forceable suppression of other other pre-Protestant reformist movements (ie.the Hussites) and other more blatant heterodox movements (the Cathars).
The Church had spent a thousand years after the Fall of Rome using its significant political power, sometimes, maybe even most of the time for good, but also to its own benefit. Ultimately what made the Reformation fly was several northern European rulers seeing the opportunity to rid themselves of what at the time was a meddlesome, and let’s be perfectly honest, very corrupt Church. One cannot assert moral authority when one is so personally deficient in it.
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1Lord1Faith
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I also don’t give Martin Luther a lot of credit for “creating” Protestantism. He happened to be a small spark in the right place at the right time. I think even he was aware of that.
It’s been my impression that Lutheranism took off faster than Christianity took off in the first century. Are we to believe that Martin Luther was more influential than Peter? I think not, given the fact that Luther was a follower of Christ.
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niceatheist
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I’d agree that Luther wasn’t the first, and that the Bohemian Reformation was probably the most immediate inspiration. As to Luther’s influence, we’ll I’d say it’s hard to minimize it. To one extent or another the 95 Theses inspires just about every Protestant group that came after. If anything, some Protestant lineages came to believe Luther hadn’t gone far enough.
If not as influential as Peter, then I’d say he was as influential as St. Paul, and in some people’s view, Paul was probably the most influential theologian in Christianity’s history.
And yes Luther was in the right place at the right time. The Church was at its lowest point, the Papacy discredited, senior clergy throughout Europe enriching themselves and wielding the power of Princes. In the East Orthodox Christianity now lay under the boot heal of Muslim Sultans. The time was ripe for revolt, and the Northern and Central European princes finally found the excuse they needed to throw off Rome’s yolk. Even the common folk (though Luther seemed to have disdain for them) were easily lead into Protestantism because of what they viewed as the hypocrisy and immorality of the Church.
If not as influential as Peter, then I’d say he was as influential as St. Paul, and in some people’s view, Paul was probably the most influential theologian in Christianity’s history.
And yes Luther was in the right place at the right time. The Church was at its lowest point, the Papacy discredited, senior clergy throughout Europe enriching themselves and wielding the power of Princes. In the East Orthodox Christianity now lay under the boot heal of Muslim Sultans. The time was ripe for revolt, and the Northern and Central European princes finally found the excuse they needed to throw off Rome’s yolk. Even the common folk (though Luther seemed to have disdain for them) were easily lead into Protestantism because of what they viewed as the hypocrisy and immorality of the Church.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
The way in which Luther nailed his thesis to the church door makes for a good ‘hook’. The fact that it is still re-enacted today, and is a well known act of Luther attests to it’s influence as being seen as a ‘heroic’ moment.
I thought that all he was doing was hanging a thesis, (albeit in a very noticeable place) of which he was going to discuss at a lecture. It was nothing more than an announcement of what he was going to discuss at his lecture.
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spedteacherita
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It may not have been Luther who ended up being the one who was involved so significantly if it hadn’t been for the Gutenberg inventing the printing press. That became the “social media” of that era. If it weren’t for that it would have been someone else especially given the climate that you described at the time.
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spedteacherita
Guest
The hanging of the 95 Theses on the church door was a common practice in that day for scholars to invite others to debate the information on it.
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JamalChristophr
Guest
I think there are some legal issues with that approach now, far as I know.
It’s sad that there was so much violence back then and lack of charity on both sides. I can’t see that Jesus would have been too happy with either sides, in so far as, the profound enmity that often occurred on both sides, goes. All Christians are called to be charitable and patient with their neighbor whether he be pagan, protestant, or Catholic.
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pnewton
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Luther was right about some of those things, by the way.
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JamalChristophr
Guest
The “new” CAF has indeed become something of a wild west town. :cowboy_hat_face:
I think that is mostly a negative thing. Discussion has become noticeably less charitable, it seems, among other things, without the level of moderation that we previously had. It is less civil and courteous- more like the secular forums we see everywhere else on the internet.
Another thought:
I think the word “commemorate” is a problematic source of strife. It does not always mean to celebrate a thing or a person but simply to show it some resepct, to serve as a memorial, a reminder.
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ChunkMonk
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Luther’s teachings spread so fast because they were hedonistic and corrupt. An easy, self-indulgent lifestyle of rebellion will always be more popular than a sacrificial life of restraint.
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