Ecumenism with Lutherans

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pnewton said:
However, it does make the point that Protestants are not baptized “into the Catholic Church” as people keep claiming, and was one of three pieces of evidence I gave to support that.
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Then it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether they are guilty of heresy or not.
pnewton said:
For all the talk about avoiding ecumenism at the expense of the truth, there sure are a lot that are clinging to the lie that Protestants of today are heretics. So is it really a matter of truth, or smug superiority?
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You still haven’t shown it to be a lie.
pnewton said:
Being a Catholic and having the Sacraments and the fullness of truth is nothing to feel superior about. It is something that should fill us with fear of the Lord, knowing he will hold us to the highest standard.
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Why does He hold us to a higher standard? Because we are (theoretically) saved, right?
 
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He sure had an issue with pride. Unfortunate for him, he was right on some key issues that needed reform which might have made him even more vulnerable to that sin. Yet I think of what St. Peter might have been like with his flaws without Jesus there to personally rehabilitate him, and Martin Luther cut himself off from the grace found in the Sacraments.

Yet the issue today is about our brothers in Christ today, not this man. I sure would not want to engage in the blame game of who had the worst leader with some of the popes we had in the past. Today, how is the best way to show the love of Christ to our brothers and sisters separated from us? I guess we can all have opinions, but the Church has set the tone its guidelines from Vatican II, St. John Paul, Pope Benedict and now Pope Francis.

I think the answer will be in prayer, seeking our Lord together and letting God do what He does.
 
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ChunkMonk said:
Luther’s teachings spread so fast because they were hedonistic and corrupt. An easy, self-indulgent lifestyle of rebellion will always be more popular than a sacrificial life of restraint.
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I don’t recall Luther ever advocating immorality, and some of the early Protestant sects were notoriously austere; some of the Calvinist groups, like the English Non-conformists were as prudish as you could imagine any group of Christians to be.
 
“willing negligence” - True. Many have gone beyond the point of mitigation and are no longer invincibly ignorant. Group treatment is the problem. We should only be speaking to individuals and only as a Teaching venue,theology lesson, or RCIA. One Lutheran has one doctrine, and another a different one. From (NewAdvent,Union of Christendom).

“…What was special and novel in Luther and his colleagues was that they erected the principle of an appeal to the Bible not only into an exclusive standard of sound doctrines, but even into one which the individual could always apply for himself without dependence on the authoritative interpretations of any Church whatever…”

The rest is up to that sole Lutheran individual and he may need work through the Holy Spirit and our prayers, and a virtuous life. The Church meanwhile waits and it’s attitude is to support and assist him at continuing along in his path of enlightenment. Dealing with them on the collective form was the mistake that we fell into. In this form they approached the Church for dialogue, and we know LeFebvre dutifully warned of this “Two Authorative Teachers” trap, in that we cannot relent to any error if our teaching is perfect.
 
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I just passed my dentists’ office on the way home from All Saints Day Mass and his roadside sign, which usually has a shout out to his hygienists or a corny joke, reads “Happy Reformation Day 500 Years”. I wonder if I should tell him my teeth are Catholic.
 
Though I’ve only seen fairly brief excerpts of his writing, Luther’s talent for and use of sophistry to win followers is without equal, it seems. Quite skilled in the “trade” of making winsome yet fallaciois arguments.

(This post was not actually directed to your post, Star. I just pressed the wrong button. )
 
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If it suits his evil plan, Satan can tell the truth.
 
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Maybe you aren’t.

If one Lutheran is allowed to have a differing doctrine from other Lutherans, then chances are your views may find support with one of them, or even find support with all of them making your stance a majority with them. It is encumbent on them to settle their doctrinal issues before entering discussions with Catholics. Just one more point in our favor.

To make the point, and if they all hold that they have one doctrine, why not we only accept a Lutheran representative in our discussions then we do not repeat what he says after the meeting, and find one that disagrees with his stand and declare the conversation null because of it.
 
The following explanation of Luther’s Table Talk came from the Beggars All website.

The quote is available in the English edition of Luther’s Works. It is from Luther’s Table Talk, LW 54:154. Luther didn’t write the Table Talk. It is a collection of second-hand comments written down by Luther’s friends and students, published after his death.

For further explanation on it:


Blessings

Rita
 
ChunkMonk said:
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niceatheist:
I don’t recall Luther ever advocating immorality
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You clearly haven’t read much of what the man taught then.
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Then provide some examples
 
You make a lot of sense.

It’s more than a cheating. My mother and father went to a lot of effort to keep us from those very schismatic influences, and the books of wisdom state we should avoid them. They did their duty to do has the Church asked them to. If what is being said here by the Trads is offensive, the regular homilies in the Catholic parish of the 50’s would not be well received either. What is being attacked here is my generation and every one of my ancestral line, and by their principles they are being told they are liars. I do take that personally.

The Faithful have the right here to express their concerns and present them for consideration through Sensus Fidelium.

Conscience in Conflict, Keneth R. Overberg S.J.

"Just has the Church holds that the Spirit infallibly guides the megisterium so that it does not propose teachings that would lead the whole Church into error, so it holds that the faithful, as a whole, have an instinct or “sense” about when a teaching is - or is not-in harmony with the true faith. This special sensus fidelium(concensus of the faithful) is one of the ways the Spirit protects God’s people from error.

Such openness acknowledges that the Spirit is teaching in the experience of experts and of ordinary folks alike. Vatican II expressed this conviction well in The Church in the Modern World…

…the church needs to step up this exchange by calling upon the help of people who are living in the world, who are expert in it’s organizations and it’s form of training, and who understand it’s mentality, in the case of believers and non believers alike…#44."

If we Catholics are being admonished here, then how much more of value are the contributions of non believers? I say stand up to your rights. You are no more heretic than some of the stuff that we are spoon fed that are of issue. (Besides heresy needs to be consummated to be so, and a Catholic forum is a poor podium for that outlet.)

I think we need to start attributing effect to their real cause.
 
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Sin boldly.

If the husband is unwilling, another is willing. If the wife is unwilling bring the maid.

Advising polygamy.

What harm is it to tell a good lusty lie?

Slaughter peasants.

Drive out the Jews. Shame we didn’t slay them all.
 
I think while we are criticizing Luther, and I’m not saying he didn’t deserve it, we need to face up to the fact that many Catholics were extremely anti-Semitic at that point in time too. Doesn’t make it okay, but Luther didn’t invent the idea of getting rid of the Jews.
 
Luther said many things. That is true. And we could all accuse him of many things. I’ll even join you in that.

But the main question that should be asked and is for some reason very important when Catholicism is accused of whatever on here.

“Is that official teaching”?
 
Totally agree. He started with legitimate criticism - many in the Church were not comfortable with Tetzel’s indulgence sales - but then he went from there into many other areas and just seems to have gotten carried away with himself. Or possibly mentally disturbed, which is also my impression of Joseph Smith.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I just passed my dentists’ office on the way home from All Saints Day Mass and his roadside sign, which usually has a shout out to his hygienists or a corny joke, reads “Happy Reformation Day 500 Years”. I wonder if I should tell him my teeth are Catholic.
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Thank you for sharing this. That’s why when both Catholics and Protestants have joint services for the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther and the reformation it’s very, very scandalous, because we are clearly not on the same page in regards to Martin Luther and the Reformation.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
 
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