Ecumenism with the LDS Church

[Tannhauser_1509]

Does anyone feel the Church should enter into better dialogue with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? We each represent a substantial body of believers with great influence and powerful moral authority, yet great doctrinal and theological division. I know it may be hard to engage the LDS doctrinally, given their decentralized engagement with theology and moral philosophy, but would anyone like to see Rome start taking this growing organization with greater attentiveness?

 

[TexanKnight]

Does anyone feel the Church should enter into better dialogue with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? We each represent a substantial body of believers with great influence and powerful moral authority, yet great doctrinal and theological division. I know it may be hard to engage the LDS doctrinally, given their decentralized engagement with theology and moral philosophy, but would anyone like to see Rome start taking this growing organization with greater attentiveness?

I have been saying that. I have said we should do that here instead of the attacks

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

I have been saying that. I have said we shot do that here instead of the attacks

I’m sorry you’ve felt attacked. This is a forum full of Catholics, though, some of them with loud mouths.

 

[jane_doe]

Formal ecumenism: I opinion on that would depend on exactly what all that entailed.

Standing together on social issues: I feel that this is already happening between the two churches (stance on homosexuality and religious freedom being two obvious examples).

Learning to work together as human beings: this is always a good thing. As with any individuals understanding others, the first key is putting away pride in favor or Christ-like love. Sadly, such has never been humanity’s strong suit. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t keep working on it. Personally, the reason I came to CAF was to better understand Catholics, and I have seen Catholics whom want to also understand Mormons.

(BTW: from the LDS perspective, the Catholic church looks like completely de-centralized Just sharing a different view.)

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

Formal ecumenism: I opinion on that would depend on exactly what all that entailed.

Standing together on social issues: I feel that this is already happening between the two churches (stance on homosexuality and religious freedom being two obvious examples).

Learning to work together as human beings: this is always a good thing. As with any individuals understanding others, the first key is putting away pride in favor or Christ-like love. Sadly, such has never been humanity’s strong suit. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t keep working on it. Personally, the reason I came to CAF was to better understand Catholics, and I have seen Catholics whom want to also understand Mormons.

(BTW: from the LDS perspective, the Catholic church looks like completely de-centralized Just sharing a different view.)

I agree with you. What I meant was, I’d like to see maybe some more literature by serious Catholic scholars, the bishops of the Church, etc. I said decentralized because the LDS aren’t a credal people like Catholic Christians are.

 

[jane_doe]

I said decentralized because the LDS aren’t a credal people like Catholic Christians are.

Ok, that makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification.

What I meant was, I’d like to see maybe some more literature by serious Catholic scholars, the bishops of the Church, etc.

Could you elaborate more on this?

Also, thank you for this refreshingly Christian thread.

 

[Marie5890]

(BTW: from the LDS perspective, the Catholic church looks like completely de-centralized Just sharing a different view.)

It IS far more de-centralized than people realize.

It’s a common misconception among Mormons is that one of the so-called ‘evidence’ of the Catholic church being the remnants of an apostacized church is the heirarchical structure.

But what they don’t realize it’s not a mirror of Mormon structure. Yes, the Bishop of Rome is the Pope (by virtue that he is the Bishop of Rome, not vice versa) but his brother bishops are far more autonomous than the Q of 12 have under the 1st Pres.

Historically, it has gone back and forth. Sometimes more centralized, sometimes not. That play a part in the East West Schism.

When the Lord sent the 12 to all nations just prior to His Ascension, they went to various areas in that part of the world and set up communities and headed up those communities. IE those communities bishops.

And from there, we have apostolic succession.
Each (arch)bishop is autonomous over this (arch)diocese. Rarely does Rome ever get involved, even when called upon

Case in point. The Cause for Canonization of Archbishop Fulton Sheen. It has stalled because the Bishop of Peoria and Cardinal Dolan (archbishop of New York City) have run into a dispute as to the final resting place for Sheen’s remains (as well as the collection of relics)

They have both said they are waiting for Rome to say something. And Rome is staying out of it, seeing as between these two men.

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

Could you elaborate more on this?

In my experience in Utah, formal arguments against LDS teaching don’t go very far. Frankly, the LDS Church doesn’t care, and why should they? They have living prophets and the fullness of truth; it’s a deeply personal and genuine faith to which they are committed. In future communication with the LDS, I’d like clergy and laymen (Catholic) alike to acknowledge that faith and encourage LDS leaders and scholars to step out of isolationism and begin serious dialogue with Catholics so that they can hear our protests and respond to them, so that we can move beyond strawmen and begin engaging the truth with honesty and cooperation.

 

[jane_doe]

It IS far more de-centralized than people realize.

It’s a common misconception among Mormons is that one of the so-called ‘evidence’ of the Catholic church being the remnants of an apostacized church is the heirarchical structure.

But what they don’t realize it’s not a mirror of Mormon structure. Yes, the Bishop of Rome is the Pope (by virtue that he is the Bishop of Rome, not vice versa) but his brother bishops are far more autonomous than the Q of 12 have under the 1st Pres.

Historically, it has gone back and forth. Sometimes more centralized, sometimes not. That play a part in the East West Schism.

When the Lord sent the 12 to all nations just prior to His Ascension, they went to various areas in that part of the world and set up communities and headed up those communities. IE those communities bishops.

And from there, we have apostolic succession.
Each (arch)bishop is autonomous over this (arch)diocese. Rarely does Rome ever get involved, even when called upon

Case in point. The Cause for Canonization of Archbishop Fulton Sheen. It has stalled because the Bishop of Peoria and Cardinal Dolan (archbishop of New York City) have run into a dispute as to the final resting place for Sheen’s remains (as well as the collection of relics)

They have both said they are waiting for Rome to say something. And Rome is staying out of it, seeing as between these two men.

Thank you for this potent example of different cultures. Understanding this was a big thing for me studying Catholicism (because it is so different than LDS way of doing things).

 

[jane_doe]

In my experience in Utah, formal arguments against LDS teaching don’t go very far. Frankly, the LDS Church doesn’t care, and why should they? They have living prophets and the fullness of truth; it’s a deeply personal and genuine faith to which they are committed. In future communication with the LDS, I’d like clergy and laymen (Catholic) alike to acknowledge that faith and encourage LDS leaders and scholars to step out of isolationism and begin serious dialogue with Catholics so that they can hear our protests and respond to them, so that we can move beyond strawmen and begin engaging the truth with honesty and cooperation.

Amen!!

I also think this eloquently illustrates another cultural difference between the two: Roman formal structured arguments, and LDS informal personal belief. I don’t think either culture should go away- they are both quite beautiful, but a mutual deeper appreciation and dialogue would be downright wonder.

 

[Marie5890]

Does anyone feel the Church should enter into better dialogue with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? We each represent a substantial body of believers with great influence and powerful moral authority, yet great doctrinal and theological division. I know it may be hard to engage the LDS doctrinally, given their decentralized engagement with theology and moral philosophy, but would anyone like to see Rome start taking this growing organization with greater attentiveness?

Gavin, when you say dialogue what do you mean? To what aim? I know one of the LDS GA’s was at the Vatican last fall when it came to discussions on the family, and I know that there was a Vatican rep who addressed the BYU-Provo student body not too many years ago?

I’m not sure that Holy See sees Mormonism as significant as you may think?

 

[Marie5890]

In my experience in Utah, formal arguments against LDS teaching don’t go very far. Frankly, the LDS Church doesn’t care, and why should they? They have living prophets and the fullness of truth; it’s a deeply personal and genuine faith to which they are committed. In future communication with the LDS, I’d like clergy and laymen (Catholic) alike to acknowledge that faith and encourage LDS leaders and scholars to step out of isolationism and begin serious dialogue with Catholics so that they can hear our protests and respond to them, so that we can move beyond strawmen and begin engaging the truth with honesty and cooperation.

How would either side get past the doctrinal wall of the LDS belief of a so-called great apostasy?

Plus the LDS self-described mission of proclaiming their understanding of the Gospel; redeeming the dead (it’s left a bad taste in the mouth of many Catholics that Mormons have collected geneological information from Catholic parishes without being transparent for most if it’s history that it was for using in temple work including baptizing the dead into Mormons)?

I see the Catholic Church at this point in time far more interested in trying to bring together the Right and Left lungs of the Church; of dealing with the persecutions that Middlle Eastern Christians are dealing with; then dealing with what is seen as mostly American Church.?

Because of the radically different theology, I don’t see much dialogue beyond social issues.
Do you see other areas of commonality beyond social issues?

 

[zaffiroborant]

I have been saying that. I have said we should do that here instead of the attacks

At the least can you tell him to quit nannying, I’m more than a bit tired of this claim he is attacked while at the same time attacking posters like Rebecca for neutral commentary, and following up with sarcasm when asked about his own attack. He pokes everyone and then stands there holding a halo over his head. I see this from middle school kids daily.

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

Gavin, when you say dialogue what do you mean? To what aim? I know one of the LDS GA’s was at the Vatican last fall when it came to discussions on the family, and I know that there was a Vatican rep who addressed the BYU-Provo student body not too many years ago?

I’m not sure that Holy See sees Mormonism as significant as you may think?

I’m not talking about the Holy See specifically. I mean the way Catholics interact with LDS scholarship and encourage the LDS to respond to Catholic protests against the faith. I’d like to see more back-and-forth, I guess, and not so much one-sidedness.

This probably seems bigger to me given how permeating LDS culture is where I live. I doubt the Holy Father or much of the cardinalate give much attention to this relatively obscure sect, at least in their minds.

 

[Marie5890]

Amen!!

I also think this eloquently illustrates another cultural difference between the two: Roman formal structured arguments, and LDS informal personal belief. I don’t think either culture should go away- they are both quite beautiful, but a mutual deeper appreciation and dialogue would be downright wonder.

Jane, so are you thinking strictly the Roman church? Not the other Catholic churches?

(again another misunderstanding is that the Roman church is the Universal Church (Catholic). The Universal Church is much bigger than that, which includes the Eastern Catholics, which are more like the Orthodox, but in communion with Rome)

When one understands Catholicism as a whole, one comes to see how it has very little in common with Mormonism.

 

[Tannhauser_1509]

How would either side get past the doctrinal wall of the LDS belief of a so-called great apostasy?

Plus the LDS self-described mission of proclaiming their understanding of the Gospel; redeeming the dead (it’s left a bad taste in the mouth of many Catholics that Mormons have collected geneological information from Catholic parishes without being transparent for most if it’s history that it was for using in temple work including baptizing the dead into Mormons)?

I see the Catholic Church at this point in time far more interested in trying to bring together the Right and Left lungs of the Church; of dealing with the persecutions that Middlle Eastern Christians are dealing with; then dealing with what is seen as mostly American Church.?

Because of the radically different theology, I don’t see much dialogue beyond social issues.
Do you see other areas of commonality beyond social issues?

I’m not trying to inflate the issue; just pointing out what may be useful in the future. You mentioned the ecumenical work the Catholic Church has undertaken with the Orthodox Churches; I’m confident that when (yes, when) we’re together again, offshoot sects like the LDS will see the value in the one and ancient faith. But beyond social issues, if we were to discuss doctrine with the LDS, I think it’s important to ask the LDS to be transparent about what they believe, and in so doing I think that will highlight just how disorganized their theology is even among each other. I don’t know where I was going with this; I just feel that Catholics are reaching out to Mormons with the same dull methods.

 

[jane_doe]

Jane, so are you thinking strictly the Roman church? Not the other Catholic churches?

(again another misunderstanding is that the Roman church is the Universal Church (Catholic). The Universal Church is much bigger than that, which includes the Eastern Catholics, which are more like the Orthodox, but in communion with Rome)

I am aware of the Eastern Rites-- a very kind Byzantine Catholic here actually was instrumental in me gaining quasi understanding and greater appreciation of the Catholic faith as a whole.

But I was referring to the Roman Catholic church, as it is the largest of the bunch.

 

[Marie5890]

I’m not talking about the Holy See specifically. I mean the way Catholics interact with LDS scholarship and encourage the LDS to respond to Catholic protests against the faith. I’d like to see more back-and-forth, I guess, and not so much one-sidedness.

This probably seems bigger to me given how permeating LDS culture is where I live. I doubt the Holy Father or much of the cardinalate give much attention to this relatively obscure sect, at least in their minds.

Oh Ok, that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

I think where that would be challenge is in terms of scholarship. Im not sure how many LDS scholars there are that would have working knowledge of ancient Greek and Hebrew and ancient Hebrew cultures? Maybe there are? I honestly don’t know.

I remember when I was going thru RCIA and dealing with our pastoral associate in the process. She was working on her PH.D and we had some good conversations about Mormonism and Catholicism when she found out I had been LDS.

She did some research on her own and she came away with the impression of how little scholarship that there was and such an under-developed doctrine.

Remember, the Universal Church as well as Orthodoxy traces all they way back to the Early Church Fathers. She pretty much found Mormonism as an obscure American sect with severe doctrinal distortions.

 

[Chris-WA]

I guess it depends what one means by ecumenism. Obviously there is significant common ground on social issues and charitable programs, and the two churches are already cooperating on those to a great degree (i.e., Prop 8 in California). But sometimes people take ecumenism to mean the compromising of Catholic teaching or doctrine in order to make nice with others. This is false ecumenism and ultimately leads nowhere.

Unfortunately, the LDS Church from its beginning took a very strong stand against the Catholic Church (and all other churches for that matter) by naming us all “abominations”, “the church of the devil”, etc. This is found in their scripture so they can never totally get away from it no matter how relations have improved since then. When confronted, LDS often try to downplay this aspect of their faith by being wishy-washy about it, but it’s there in black and white, and certainly reflects the true beliefs of early LDS leaders like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, who made it pretty clear what that all meant.

You have to know/live among Mormons to know how they think. They think differently from most of the rest of us in certain key ways. One of the most obvious is how they see people of other faiths. They don’t see us as Catholics or Presbyterians or Lutherans or whatever. Instead, most LDS (and I’m certain many of you have had this experience) see all people in one of two ways: member or non-member. That is their paradigm in which they operate, and governs their first impressions of “gentiles,” as they call us within their own circles. It affects how they treat you, confide in you, trust you, etc. It’s not their fault. It’s just a natural consequence of the culture of their church–how they are raised to see the outside world. I have had this experience myself many times. It used to make me mad. Now it makes me laugh. What they don’t realize is behaving this way demeans the rest of us, because it implies some kind of patronizing superiority they unconsciously exude. They don’t even realize they are doing it.

When I meet someone my first idea of that person is not whether they are Catholic or not. I don’t really care. But it’s different for Mormons. The first thing they think about you is member or non-member, and everything starts from that perspective. Now of course, just like any other large population with any issue, there are surely many LDS who don’t see the world this way, but most do.

Ecumenism with their church is obviously more difficult than with Protestant religions because their beliefs are so very different on even the most basic things like who God is, who Jesus is, how we got here, what heaven is, and the list goes on and on.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Ecumenism is a lot harder with the LDS than it would be with regular Christian denominations. I mean, at least Catholics and Protestants can agree on the most basic of things such as the Trinity and the existence of only one God. Mormons deny the Holy Trinity and believe in the existence of other gods. The Trinity and absolute Monotheism are some of the most basic doctrines of the Christian faith. LDS aren’t really Christians though. They are heterodox to the point where they don’t share the same baptism with us. Their baptism is invalid.

(Note: I do not mean to offend any Mormons on here I am just offering up the Catholic position and my personal position on the matter.)