Ecumenism

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Dear All,

My fiancee and I have a dream to get married in the place we fell in love - Fort Terekhol, Goa, India. St Anthony’s church sits inside the fort. It is a Catholic Church however neither my fiancee or myself are Catholic. OK…obvious answer to that one you might think but bear with me. We are both Christians and do not consider ourselves a part of any denomination preferring unity across all Christian denominations (Ecumenism).

We have written to His Excellency Most Rev. Filipe Neri Ferrão, Archbishop of Goa and Daman requesting his approval to be married at St Anthony’s Church citing the ‘Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism‘ 102 & 103 issued by Adoremus – a Catholic society for the Renewal of the Sacred Liturgy, as follows:
  1. Christians may be encouraged to share in spiritual activities and resources, i.e., to share that spiritual heritage they have in common in a manner and to a degree appropriate to their present divided state.
  2. The term “sharing in spiritual activities and resources” covers such things as prayer offered in common, sharing in liturgical worship in the strict sense, as described below in n. 116, as well as common use of sacred places and of all necessary objects.
My request was politely declined.

If anyone has a view on this please come forward. There are not many months left before we are hoping to be married and I am unable to let this issue drop until I have explored every available avenue.

I am specifically after answers to the following questions:

  1. *]Is it possible for a non-catholic wedding to take place inside a Catholic Church?
    *]If the answer to 1) is ‘Yes’ then what are the next steps I should take. Who should I escalate this to?

    Kind regards,

    Andrew
 
I am pretty sure (almost 100% sure) that one party getting married in a Catholic Church must be Catholic.

Marriage is a sacrament in the church, so therefore you need other sacraments from the church (i.e. Baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation) to make it complete.

I wonder if maybe Jesus is calling you and your fiance to become Catholics?
 
You are correct Kristanl if the ceremony is performed by a Catholic minister. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism suggests that it the Catholic Church is authorised in “…the sharing in spiritual activities and resources”. I assume that resources includes the Church itself? In that case a non-Catholic, Christian priest should be able to marry us in a Catholic church.

🙂
 
musicsyellow said:
You are correct Kristanl if the ceremony is performed by a Catholic minister. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism suggests that it the Catholic Church is authorised in “…the sharing in spiritual activities and resources”. I assume that resources includes the Church itself? In that case a non-Catholic, Christian priest should be able to marry us in a Catholic church.

🙂
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There is another section in the Directory:
  1. Catholic churches are consecrated or blessed buildings which have an important theological and liturgical significance for the Catholic community. They are therefore generally reserved for Catholic worship. However, if priests, ministers or communities not in full communion with the Catholic Church do not have a place or the liturgical objects necessary for celebrating worthily their religious ceremonies, the diocesan Bishop may allow them the use of a church or a Catholic building and also lend them what may be necessary for their services. Under similar circumstances, permission may be given to them for interment or for the celebration of services at Catholic cemeteries.
I’m guessing that the bishop believes that you have access to another place for your marriage so he is reserving the church itself for Catholic worship.
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
I’m guessing that the bishop believes that you have access to another place for your marriage so he is reserving the church itself for Catholic worship.
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This wasn’t stated in the response. The only reasons given were the following:
  1. Code: 
     As per the norms of the Catholic Church, Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the Sacraments only to Catholic members of Christ’s faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from Catholic ministers.
  2. Code: 
     Exception is made regarding the Sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the sick only. The Catholic Church sometimes allows her ministers to administer these Sacraments to non-catholic faithful, but under certain conditions (see can. 844, C.I.C).
It is an interesting point you raise. My Fiancee is Swedish and has been living and working in India for 18 years. She feels very well connected to the people and the culture. Because of this and that Terekhol fort is such a poignant place for us St Anthony’s is the place we want to exchange our vows.
 
musicsyellow said:
You are correct Kristanl if the ceremony is performed by a Catholic minister. The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism suggests that it the Catholic Church is authorised in “…the sharing in spiritual activities and resources”. I assume that resources includes the Church itself? In that case a non-Catholic, Christian priest should be able to marry us in a Catholic church.

🙂
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hello MusiccsY,
Code: 
   Assume???  Wow!
Don’t assume read the whole statement:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_25031993_principles-and-norms-on-ecumenism_en.html

Catholics believe that Marriage is a Sacrament instituted by Christ, because marriage is too difficult outside his Church to last
The two become one flesh… that’s not just physical, that’s spiritual as well.
And what is joined spiritually, no man can divide.

Martin Luther took the Sacrament of Marriage and made it a civil function.
What was joined can and could be physically divided by distribution of property.

Ecumenism is about mutual cooperation of Christian values:
#218, [of the above URL]
either by having Catholic communicators take part in the initiatives of other Churches and ecclesial Communities, or by having communicators from these latter to participate in Catholic initiatives. Ecumenical collaboration could include exchanges between International Catholic Organizations and the communications organizations of other Churches and ecclesial Communities
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There are many areas where Christians can work together:
Cooperation in Social Communications Media
Cooperation in the field of medicine
Cooperation in the field of development, human need and stewardship of creation
Cooperation in common studies of social and ethical questions
Cooperation in Missionary Activity

However #73 states
73. Ecumenical activity “has to be fully and sincerely Catholic, that is, faithful to the truth we have received from the Apostles and the Fathers and consonant with the faith the Catholic Church has always professed”

Marrying two non catholics in a Catholic Church is not what Ecumenism is about.

A Catholic priest cannot refuse to marry baptized persons if one of them is Catholic and as long as the other is baptized in the formula “In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.” But cannot marry two non-Catholics in a Catholic Church.

God bless, :highprayer:
 
musicsyellow said:
This wasn’t stated in the response. The only reasons given were the following:
  1. Code: 
     As per the norms of the Catholic Church, Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the Sacraments only to Catholic members of Christ’s faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from Catholic ministers.
  2. Code: 
     Exception is made regarding the Sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the sick only. The Catholic Church sometimes allows her ministers to administer these Sacraments to non-catholic faithful, but under certain conditions (see can. 844, C.I.C).
It is an interesting point you raise. My Fiancee is Swedish and has been living and working in India for 18 years. She feels very well connected to the people and the culture. Because of this and that Terekhol fort is such a poignant place for us St Anthony’s is the place we want to exchange our vows.
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Hello Musicy,

Excuse my lack of Knowledge for C.I.C.? Or is this the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

What? the Catholic Church is the only Church in all of Terkhol fort? No other Christian Chapels?
Being Swedish is she a Lutheran? Is there being similarities to the Catholic church her reason for wanting to marry in a catholic church? Similarities is not sameness… Some people would like to believe 'A Church is a church is aChurch"
But they are not.

Have you guys been attending Mass, at this Church at all? Participating as members?

Sorry, but,
If neither one of you believe as Catholics do, than getting married in a nearby Catholic Church would seem like more of a convenience, than a religious reason.
And in the Catholic Church, it is the religious reason that counts.
It would take you both say from Oct to Easter Sunday in RCIA Classes to become catholic and live your dream of Marrying in St. Anthony’s Church?
Seems you want what you want, when you want, without considering the Beliefs of the Catholic Church, which you insist placing your beliefs and wants on… which seem selfish in themselves.

God Bless,
john:highprayer:
 
musicsyellow said:
This wasn’t stated in the response. The only reasons given were the following:
  1. Code: 
     As per the norms of the Catholic Church, Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the Sacraments only to Catholic members of Christ’s faithful, who equally may lawfully receive them only from Catholic ministers.
  2. Code: 
     Exception is made regarding the Sacraments of Penance, Eucharist and Anointing of the sick only. The Catholic Church sometimes allows her ministers to administer these Sacraments to non-catholic faithful, but under certain conditions (see can. 844, C.I.C)..
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The Sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist, and the anointing of the sick can be administered by a cooperating non Catholic Priest, i.e like a Chaplain,
Nothing about marriage, and Church’s which like the RCC, do have the Sacraments i.e. of Catholic Rite, i.e Eastern orthodox Rite, Byzantine Rite, Coptic Rite, The Byzantine and Coptic Catholic Church are in Communion with the RCC.

A genuine spiritual advantage to me is when you are moved by the Holy Spirit to do so.

I know a guy who became a Protestant minister and ran right to a Pastor [whose ministry was Baptist like] and told him the Holy Spirit told me to to work for you and your community. The way my friend tells it, The good ole pastor, placed his glasses at the lower end of his nose, looked him right in the eye, and said, "When the Holy Spirit tells me to hire you, I will. My friend never got hired.

Your fiance might think it would be nice to Marry in the nearby local Catholic Church, But think how much nicer it would be to become Catholic and Marry in the Catholic Church.

God Bless,
John:highprayer:
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musicsyellow said:
Dear All,

My fiancee and I have a dream to get married in the place we fell in love - Fort Terekhol, Goa, India. St Anthony’s church sits inside the fort. It is a Catholic Church however neither my fiancee or myself are Catholic. OK…obvious answer to that one you might think but bear with me. We are both Christians and do not consider ourselves a part of any denomination preferring unity across all Christian denominations (Ecumenism).
Kind regards,

Andrew
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Hello Andrew,
Do you really care about ecumenism? or just using that for an excuse to get your way?

Looking at Goa, india they have many Mosgues, temples, Church’s

As far as the St.Anthony’s Church is it opened to the public???
Hmmm.

The fort also houses a church inside its premises which is known as the St. Anthony church. The church is usually not open for public to visit. However, during certain occasions like its annual feast, the church is open for the public as well. The annual feast of the St. Anthony church takes place during the month of May. The Terekhol fort stands strong till date and makes an interesting testimony of history.

another site:

The Terekhol fort is in a state of ruins and the remnants of the original structure have now been converted into a hotel, the Terekhol Fort Heritage. T**he fort houses the century old Church of St. Anthony in its courtyard. But it is not open to the general public except on certain occasions such as the annual feast **that is usually held in May.

Sorry ya never mentioned you wanted to get married there Because it is a tourist resort.

God bless,
John:highprayer:
 
John_oxios said:
… What? the Catholic Church is the only Church in all of Terkhol fort? No other Christian Chapels?
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That is correct. There are no other Christian chapels in this area.
John_oxios said:
Sorry, but,
If neither one of you believe as Catholics do, than getting married in a nearby Catholic Church would seem like more of a convenience, than a religious reason.
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It is sad that you think we may merely be looking at St Anthony’s out of convenience. It is for spiritual reasons as well as reasons of religion and love. It is a special place for both of us. As a member of the Church of England I too believe marriage is too difficult outside Christ’s Church to last…that two become one flesh.
John_oxios said:
Seems you want what you want, when you want, without considering the Beliefs of the Catholic Church, which you insist placing your beliefs and wants on… which seem selfish in themselves.

God Bless,
john:highprayer:
Click to expand...
We were faced with a difficult set of issues: my fiancee has an indian heart and in particular has a close spiritual connection with north Goa and we are both Christians so wish to take Christian wedding vows. Goan Churches are Catholic, Catholic and Church of England are Christian hence my question.

It seems I may have offended and if that is the case I apologise. It wasn’t my intention - I don’t profess to know too much theology or the finer points of the Roman Catholic Church…I just have what I thought was a simple request that means so much to us in terms of our future life together. The ecumenical movement seemed to provide some hope but it seems I am wrong.

Thank you all for your advice.

God Bless,

Andrew
 
@ John oxios…there seems to be a lot of cynicism, anger and sarcasm in your posts. It makes me wonder who is truer to Christian values…hmmm.

Our choice has nothing to do with tourist resorts! You couldn’t get further away from a tourist resort in North Goa if you tried. You clearly haven’t been there yourself and if you had (as we have) you would know that wedding ceremonies do take place in the Church.
 
musicsyellow said:
That is correct. There are no other Christian chapels in this area.

We were faced with a difficult set of issues: my fiancee has an indian heart and in particular has a close spiritual connection with north Goa and we are both Christians so wish to take Christian wedding vows. Goan Churches are Catholic, Catholic and Church of England are Christian hence my question.

It seems I may have offended and if that is the case I apologise. It wasn’t my intention - I don’t profess to know too much theology or the finer points of the Roman Catholic Church…I just have what I thought was a simple request that means so much to us in terms of our future life together. The ecumenical movement seemed to provide some hope but it seems I am wrong.

Thank you all for your advice.

God Bless,

Andrew
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Hi Andrew,
No offense taken, I tend to go over the deep end on issues… But there are plenty of Christian Church’s according to the Webs sites. Maybe your fiance has Catholic leanings? After all is it the building that matters? Get married outside the Church if at all possible, by a minster of your faith?

God bless,
John:highprayer:
 
musicsyellow said:
Is it possible for a non-catholic wedding to take place inside a Catholic Church?
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Possible, yes. Likely, no.
musicsyellow said:
If the answer to 1) is ‘Yes’ then what are the next steps I should take. Who should I escalate this to?
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You need much, much better reasons than the one you have. If you really need to pursue this further, I suggest you contact a Catholic canon lawyer who can go over the specifics of your situation, and help draft a second letter to the Archbishop that better explains why it would be advantageous to allow you two the use of St. Anthony’s. It might help if you were well known, in a positive light, at the parish. Have either or both of you volunteered in any parish charitable programs? How have either or both of you furthered the Christian ecumenical effort in your own churches?
 
John_oxios said:
Hi Andrew,
No offense taken, I tend to go over the deep end on issues…
Click to expand...
Oops…ignore my last post then. I was getting a little frustrated 😊
John_oxios said:
But there are plenty of Christian Church’s according to the Webs sites.
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Please send them on!! We have made enquiries with the Church of England who have passed us onto the Church of South India and the Church of North India - neither of which have a diocese in Goa because Goa is an old Portuguese colony and 99.9% of the Churches are Catholic.

@Just Lurking…thank you for your helpful reply. I will consider what you say but if I will need “much, much better reasons than the one you have” then there are no moral grounds for me to proceed.

We would like a Christian wedding in Goa.
There are no Church of England Churches in Goa.

Therefore…

There will be no wedding in Goa! Unless of course, as some seem to suggest, one of us converts to Catholicism which would also be immoral
 
musicsyellow said:
@Just Lurking…thank you for your helpful reply. I will consider what you say but if I will need “much, much better reasons than the one you have” then there are no moral grounds for me to proceed.
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You’re welcome. One way to think of it is that for every 100 non-Catholic Christian couples who’s dream wedding would be at St. Anthony’s, only 1 would be given permission. You need to figure out if you two are that couple, and if so, be able to explain why to the Archbishop.
 
musicsyellow said:
@ John oxios…there seems to be a lot of cynicism, anger and sarcasm in your posts. It makes me wonder who is truer to Christian values…hmmm.

Our choice has nothing to do with tourist resorts! You couldn’t get further away from a tourist resort in North Goa if you tried. You clearly haven’t been there yourself and if you had (as we have) you would know that wedding ceremonies do take place in the Church.
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But they are Catholic nontheless…
Cynicism? C’mon you try to paint the Church against you and beloved, you take one line out of document with 216 points to ‘prove’ your case. I am not cynical towards your marriage, even your cause. But Ecumenism is not about dropping what we believe in, for the sake of personal desire.
You seem a little cynical yourself, the big bad catholic church isn’t fulfilling your dream, nor is it living up to your idea of Ecumenicisn.

If your Dream is to marry in the Catholic Church, Go to the RCIA Classes, see what its really about, and possibly become Catholic, marry in the Catholic Church of your dreams. A few hours a week six months, surely isn’t too much to ask? Is it?

God bless,
john:highprayer:
 
musicsyellow said:
Oops…ignore my last post then. I was getting a little frustrated 😊
Therefore…

There will be no wedding in Goa! Unless of course, as some seem to suggest, one of us converts to Catholicism which would also be immoral
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Hello Andrew,
What is it you believe? Excuse the cynicism, but do you believe simply because you ask Jesus Christ into your heart that makes you a faithful Christian?
If you are a Christian, than you attend services somewhere. If not, even Billy Graham would call you (and I quote, “an inefficient Christian”).

You would be called something like Lukewarm, you don’t really stand for a particular Church. God doesn’t want wishy washy people He wants people who stand up for His Church.

Outside of being a Mathematician, the math is easy, if neither of you are Catholic, there will not be a wedding in the Catholic Church.

If you are not practicing any particular 'Christian faith? And the Catholic Church is the only Church within hundreds of miles, well then, that would be serendipitous.
There are no coincidences, Just God instances.
How is joining the catholic Church morally wrong? But getting married in a Catholic church, you believe is morally right? Ya can’t have it both ways; or have your cake and eat it too? It either is or isn’t.

Sorry I mean no offense, but protestants (non catholics alike) are always telling me what the Catholic Church isn’t, without investigating what it really is.
Find out what it is before you call yourself ‘morally wrong’ without investigating it.
That’s called contempt: ‘hating something prior to investigation.’

There are all kinds of religious issues, Church of England? Anglican? Presbyterian? Methodist?

If its Anglican, than its no great leap. is it?

God bless,
John:highprayer:
 
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