"Ecumenism"?

[jane_doe]

I’m afraid I can’t respond without something clearer.

Look back at post 62. Someone (Rebecca?) also mention Ecumenism priest in Salt Lake. Another poster talked about them in DC with a group joining there.

 

[Peter_J]

You DO replace one sets of beliefs with another, even if the changes was <5%. It IS evangelization.

Catholic beliefs are DIFFERENT than Baptist and DIFFERENT than Lutheran and DIFFERENT than Evangelical. Sorry… I feel like this is obvious but people are just ignoring the fact.

Yes, there are differences. But we still respect them as fellow Christians enough not to “sheep steal”.

 

[Stephen168]

I feel I’m missing part of the story here and/or misunderstanding things. Anyone care to help me out?

It seems you now understand Catholic ecumenism and don’t like it.

The extreme difficulty I’ve personally had trying to find a Catholic to actually teach me anything about their faith

After observing your responses to Catholics trying to help, I’m not surprised.

 

[jane_doe]

Yes, there are differences. But we still respect them as fellow Christians enough not to “sheep steal”.

Instead you steal whole flocks?

Ecumenism IS evangelization. There’s nothing wrong with that: just call a horse a horse, and don’t pretend it’s not a horse.

 

[Stephen168]

“Evangelism is the preaching of the gospel or the practice of giving information about a particular doctrine or set of beliefs to others with the intention of converting others to the Christian faith.” wikipedia

 

[RebeccaJ]

You DO replace one sets of beliefs with another, even if the changes was <5%. It IS evangelization.

Catholic beliefs are DIFFERENT than Baptist and DIFFERENT than Lutheran and DIFFERENT than Evangelical. Sorry… I feel like this is obvious but people are just ignoring the fact.

LDS use the word gospel in a manner that Christians do not. The word encompasses practices and rites, for you. Gospel for Chistians is the revelation of Jesus Christ. St. Paul summarizes the Gospel in 1 Cor. 15:1-8.

All Christians believe in and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Our differences lie in a handful of doctrinal disagreements. Ecumenism is a hopeful approach, to these disagreements being resolved, again, via dialogue. Especially between theologians.

 

[jane_doe]

Instead you steal whole flocks?

This sentence was uncharitable. I spoke in anger and I apologize for it.

 

[jane_doe]

LDS use the word gospel in a manner that Christians do not. The word encompasses practices and rites, for you. Gospel for Chistians is the revelation of Jesus Christ. St. Paul summarizes the Gospel in 1 Cor. 15:1-8.

All Christians believe in and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Our differences lie in a handful of doctrinal disagreements. Ecumenism is a hopeful approach, to these disagreements being resolved, again, via dialogue. Especially between theologians.

I was talking about beliefs. A Baptist like holds different beliefs than a Catholic.

 

[Peter_J]

Look back at post 62. Someone (Rebecca?) also mention Ecumenism priest in Salt Lake. Another poster talked about them in DC with a group joining there.

Ah, I see the post. It was from Don Ruggero. I don’t know about other posters on this thread (and, like I said, I’m definitely not going to read 100+ posts) but I can assure you that he understands that ecumenism is not about conversions to Catholicism (or to Mormonism, or whatever church the ecumenist belongs to). Btw the full Balamand Agreement can be found here, Uniatism, method of union of the past, and the present search for full communion.

I reviewed the post just now, and it is very good:

Personally, I am unsubscribing from this thread but for the sake of completeness, in follow-up to my previous post, if you are sincerely interested in understanding “ecumenism” from the Catholic perspective, I would suggest that you be in touch with a Catholic ecumenist.

More than anonymous people who are participating on an Internet forum, each offering their own thoughts and reflections of greater or lesser relevance, one who does ecumenism on a day to day basis, indeed as one’s life’s work, is better positioned to explain what ecumenism is from a Catholic perspective, how it is actually conducted, and how we understand its place in the efforts both for Church unity and for cooperative efforts in various initiatives and endeavours.

If your questions and interest lie more with the current state of the relations and conversations presently between Catholicism and Mormonism, this would be an issue under inter-faith dialogue rather than ecumenism, technically speaking. The inter-religious dialogue with Mormons is actually a rather unique situation given Mormonism’s own uniqueness. It is not a particularly extensive topic at the international level where I am, but certainly the Diocese of Salt Lake City, and specifically its Ecumenical Commission, is an excellent beginning resource for you.

There are, actually, real and strong bonds of cooperation at the hierarchical level between the Catholic Church and the LDS…as demonstrated by the meeting at the Vatican between Pope Francis and Henry Eyring, first counselor in the governing First Presidency, in November 2014, as well as, for example, the work Bishop Wester did before his elevation as Metropolitan Archbishop of Santa Fe, USA.

Yes, you have encountered confusion in terminology and its use – because the terminology is being employed by non-specialists.

Aspects of what you are speaking about fall simply into the category of cooperation among the Churches and ecclesial communities which is a type of practical ecumenism but is occurring at a level outside of meaningful theological dialogue.

I am truly sorry to read that you are upset. I am, however, confused by your objective. On the one hand, you assert you do not wish to talk to “church lawyers” or “far removed paper-bound theologians” but rather engage in discussion with ordinary people. But then are nonplussed when these ordinary people give you varying or imprecise answers. It takes three years of academic study to become a canon lawyer and longer to become a doctor of canon law, just as it takes years to become a doctor of theology – which is why, when you ask a question of a canon lawyer or theologian, they are speaking to you from their knowledge and their experience…not from their thoughts, feelings, or what “seems”.

I have offered my advice as best I can. A forum with many voices speaking from many backgrounds is not a particularly useful channel for meaningful dialogue. I bid you farewell and wish you well in your pursuit of the knowledge and information that you are seeking.

But having said that, I have no idea what’s going on with you. Maybe you have an experience with a Catholic who used the word “ecumenism” as an excuse to try to justify proselytism (corporate or individual). If that’s the case, then I’m sorry; but it’s up to you to realize that that person (or, more likely, many persons – and possibly on this very thread) is not every Catholic.

For myself, I like Father am going to stop participating on this thread. Possibly you’re going to continue speaking with (cooperating with?) Catholics who think that ecumenism is about proselytizing, but I won’t try to stop you.

Instead you steal whole flocks?

Ecumenism IS evangelization. There’s nothing wrong with that: just call a horse a horse, and don’t pretend it’s not a horse.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I was talking about beliefs. A Baptist like holds different beliefs than a Catholic.

They hold exactly same beliefs about the Gospel. The Gospel is the Good News. Evangelizing is proclaiming the Good News.

 

[Stephen168]

Instead you steal whole flocks?

Ecumenism IS evangelization. There’s nothing wrong with that: just call a horse a horse, and don’t pretend it’s not a horse.

A donkey would be a horse to someone who has never seen a donkey.

Right, ecumenism has the ultimate desire of all the baptized in full communion. We don’t see this as a bad thing.

Mormonism is not considered a Christian church, to the Catholic Church. I think it would help you to under stand that Catholics do not evangelize other Christians. They are already Christians. Mormons and other non Christians do require Christianization before, or as a part of, discussing communion.

When discussing communion with other Christians, it is already assumed that the individuals and churches are Christians. Ecumenism from the Catholic POV is an invitation to full communion. Dialogue begins there. Each listening to the other. No one individual or church is brought into full communion, kicking and screaming.

I hope you find this vastly improved to the historical head butting between Catholics and Protestants? Ecumenism is really, a turning way from the head butting and working towards reconciliation. And indeed the Catholic Church is not going to say never mind about our doctrinal differences, but those differences can certainly be discussed and commonality found. Differences resolved to misunderstandings, and the like.

I would think this would answer the question to someone who wanted to know and your bi-lingual (Catholic & Mormon).

I don’t think she wants to understand, but in the past when I’ve been in this situation you have explained how there are some things the Mormon mind cannot understand. She has said some things that make me believe this could be the situation here. Thoughts?

 

[RebeccaJ]

A donkey would be a horse to someone who has never seen a donkey.

I would think this would answer the question to someone who wanted to know and your bi-lingual (Catholic & Mormon).

I don’t think she wants to understand, but in the past when I’ve been in this situation you have explained how there are some things the Mormon mind cannot understand. She has said some things that make me believe this could be the situation here. Thoughts?

I think we’re getting there, but yeah, Mormonism has a different meaning for every Christian term. Including Gospel.

Sola scriptura, sola fide, priesthood, etc are not the Gospel. These doctrinal discussions flow from different understandings of Church, mainly. But Church is not synonymous with Gospel. The Church exists to proclaim the Gospel, but it is not the Gospel.

For LDS their church is the gospel and the gospel is their church.

 

[Peter_J]

Ah, I see the post. It was from Don Ruggero. I don’t know about other posters on this thread (and, like I said, I’m definitely not going to read 100+ posts) but I can assure you that he understands that ecumenism is not about conversions to Catholicism (or to Mormonism, or whatever church the ecumenist belongs to). Btw the full Balamand Agreement can be found here, Uniatism, method of union of the past, and the present search for full communion.

I reviewed the post just now, and it is very good:

But having said that, I have no idea what’s going on with you. Maybe you have an experience with a Catholic who used the word “ecumenism” as an excuse to try to justify proselytism (corporate or individual). If that’s the case, then I’m sorry; but it’s up to you to realize that that person (or, more likely, many persons – and possibly on this very thread) is not every Catholic.

For myself, I like Father am going to stop participating on this thread. Possibly you’re going to continue speaking with (cooperating with?) Catholics who think that ecumenism is about proselytizing, but I won’t try to stop you.

P.S. I wrote the above post right before leaving to go to an Ecumenical Service at a Baptist church. (And, no, that *doesn’t *mean that I’m going to become a Baptist!) Then I was thinking that it was rather incomplete, but at that point editing it would have made me late. Anyhow, I think it will suffice to add just a bit more explanation to what I’ve already said.

I’m certainly well aware that “traditionalist” Catholics (or “fundamentalist” Catholics as some would call them, but I’m not looking to debate about that here) either condemn ecumenism or (more disturbingly) claim to be “ecumenical” by recasting it in a way that suits their agenda. For example read a thread like this one or:

Top 10 Whoppers (and other myths) concerning Traditionalism
…
5. **Traditionalist reject ecumenism. **Wrong. Traditionalists wholeheartedly accept and embrace ecumenism. That is if you define true ecumenism as converting heretics and pagans to the One True Church.

• forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2522480#post2522480

It seems certain that you’ve heard their rhetoric (either on this thread or elsewhere) and are now promoting it. I can’t make you stop, of course, but I just don’t want any part of it. That’s why I have to leave this thread.

And one side note: I admittedly haven’t read most of the posts here, but you mentioned earlier feeling “horror” at what some were doing with this thread. Based on that I would ask you to consider: do you really want to assist them? Really?

 

[Stephen168]

For LDS their church is the gospel and the gospel is their church.

That explains what I perceive as a black and white, you’re in or you’re out view of each denomination. She doesn’t seem to get there is Christianity and there is the latter-day-saint movement, and there are many Churches and communities in each. It seems Mormons equally reject non-members regardless of what they believe. It’s all or nothing.

 

[zaffiroborant]

That explains what I perceive as a black and white, you’re in or you’re out view of each denomination. She doesn’t seem to get there is Christianity and there is the latter-day-saint movement, and there are many Churches and communities in each. It seems Mormons equally reject non-members regardless of what they believe. It’s all or nothing.

I think it comes from correlation, and the US centric control of structure, church positions, actions, and lessons, regardless of how well it works in areas outside the US. Doing alike, looking alike, learning alike equals believing alike. If you do different things you can’t possibly believe the same things.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s all or nothing.

Yes, and also the view that Peter J just conveyed…coming from Catholics on this forum. So I can see Janes’s conclusions but it is not the position of the Church, as found in references already posted in this thread.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think it comes from correlation, and the US centric control of structure, church positions, actions, and lessons, regardless of how well it works in areas outside the US. Doing alike, looking alike, learning alike equals believing alike. If you do different things you can’t possibly believe the same things.

But I think this is changing, as non-Mormon corridor cultures convert to Mormonism they are bringing their traditions with them and incorporating them into their Mormon practices. Maori Haka and a Mormon Gospel choir, are just two recent examples, from the ever present local Mormon news. Looking for links…

deseretnews.com/article/865645980/The-Clean-Cut-Haka-performed-at-LDS-wedding-reception-viewed-over-25-million-times.html?pg=all

sltrib.com/home/3544761-155/genesis-gospel-choir-breathes-new-spunk

This conversation reminds me of a previous one, with another LDS poster, who kept on insisting a bilingual parish with two cultures using the same church, each incorporating their own cultural practices, was a form of segregation! Something gets lost in translation.

 

[zaffiroborant]

But I think this is changing, as non-Mormon corridor cultures convert to Mormonism they are bringing their traditions with them and incorporating them into their Mormon practices. Maori Haka and a Mormon Gospel choir, are just two recent examples, from the ever present local Mormon news. Looking for links…

deseretnews.com/article/865645980/The-Clean-Cut-Haka-performed-at-LDS-wedding-reception-viewed-over-25-million-times.html?pg=all

sltrib.com/home/3544761-155/genesis-gospel-choir-breathes-new-spunk

This conversation reminds me of a previous one, with another LDS poster, who kept on insisting a bilingual parish with two cultures using the same church, each incorporating their own cultural practices, was a form of segregation! Something gets lost in translation.

A bit odd since the two closest LDS churches have English and Spanish wards who meet at separate times in the same building…

 

[RebeccaJ]

One more thing Jane. Perhaps examples will help.

Coming from a non-Christian background, the doctrinal differences between Christians was completely lost on me. It probably didn’t help that I’d read of ecumenical dialogue where a Protestant would say, we’re saved by grace not by anything we do, and the Catholic would say, we agree! The Catholic says, our works flow from grace and the Protestant says, I agree! Well, from the outside you can imagine I’m thinking, what’s the problem? Obviously I’ve had more time to study and understand the nuances, but at the heart of our differences, we have deeply held common beliefs. All rooted in Jesus Christ.

Ecumenism is putting aside the hostility, some of it old and rife with emotion, and having a civil conversation. It is a prayerful hope, that our differences can be reconciled. Reconciled does not mean changing doctrines it means, delving into doctrines, understanding where each is coming from, and reconciling the differences, theologically.

Ecumenical activities are a way for us to get to know each other, to worship and pray together. Where we discover our deeply help common beliefs in the pew.

Coming from the outside, I see reconciliation as completely possible. But, there is always the human problems that deters us. Ego, being the largest deterrents in almost every case! Which is why we pray for the Holy Spirit to guide all Christians, to the realization that already exists as an attribute of the Church. We are called to be One, by Jesus. Ecumenism is taking that call seriously and recognizing that it is not something we make happen by committee, or pseudo ecumenism in the form of religious pluralism. Our unity is an action of the Holy Spirit.

 

[RebeccaJ]

A bit odd since the two closest LDS churches have English and Spanish wards who meet at separate times in the same building…

That’s what I thought, but there was this insistence that a Spanish Mass was segregating people.