ECUSA's Leader: Homosexuality Not a Choice

[JohnWilliams]

I’m not leveling any charge. You’re getting my posts mixed up with others.

Yes I did. very sorry. I am new here but no excuse. Will doubtless happen less as I get to know everyone but I was very disturbed by the charge that another leveled at me. .

All I am saying is that I recollect that he was not “with his lover” at the time of the divorce and one of your citations would support my recollection.

Is this of some importance? I don’t believe anyone has leveled an accusation of adultery, however I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a shoe that fit just as naturally as the alcohol abuse.

But, ultimately, it doesn’t matter does it?

No. That’s why I didn’t quite understand the other person’s charges brought against me.

At the time he was chosen to be the Bishop of New Hampshire everyone knew that he (i) was divorced, (ii) actively homosexual, (iii) proud of his homosexual lifestyle, and (iv) living with his male lover. Any one of these four factors were sufficient Biblical grounds to prevent his ordination. Nonethess, the Episcopal Church had to show how “God was doing a new thing” and went ahead and ordained him.

The beauty was that God provided us with such an instructive example. Would have been a lot different for many if Robinson had been a meek, celebate, batchlor that simply proclaimed homosexual tendencies. But blessedly that was ANYTHING but the case. The whole point is that these folks are about the flesh, and all about this world. Remaining celebut would be an easier task than going on the wagon (not drinking) for many.

I seriously considered leaving the day he was ordained, but hung on for another 3 years in the vain hope that Canterbury would do something…or the Anglican Communion would do something…or the Anglican leaders of the Southern Hemisphere would do something…or that the Network would do something…or…whatever. Eventually I had to do something so I left. It has not been easy for our family.

It is a horrific thing that Satan succeeded in doing to so many families like yours and mine. My youngest, of two girls, at the time about 15, calling me a bigot. They stayed in the Church with their mom for a few months then quit going. Then their mom drifted out a year later to an Anglican Church.

I went on the day of the ordination to stumble into an evangelical non-denominational mega-Church where I was born-again - finally chosen. I then went on to be led out of false futurist eschatology that they preached but not necessarily out of that Church. So I have been led out of one apostate Church and 2 doctrines so far. This is the stuff of the “overcomming” of Revelation Chapter 2. It is sure not about overcomming Satan.

It has given me a wonderfully objective view at Church doctrine, and what I see everywhere stinks when it comes to eschatology. Satan has certainly been successful.

We would never expect to see Satan at an atheist convention. They are already in his back pocket. We can look to find him in the Church in spades, doing what he can to cart of Jesus goods.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Yes, the bible condemns ‘a man laying with another man’.

But Jesus also said ‘judge not and you will not be judged’. ‘For as you judge others, so you will yourselves be judged’. Mat 7: 1-2

This is the kind of defense offered by the ECUSA for their actions. We are responsible for judging the actions of others. Particularly in this case as he is serving as a Bishop. And when we do we had better be prepared to be judged in regard to our judgment because we will answer to each an every word we type here. God demands that we judge such things. What we are discussing here is what is KNOWN.

Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I think that in that case a devout homosexual finds himself in the unenviable position of needing to remain celibate in order to follow the mandates of God and still not “violate” his homosexual identity. A hard thing to do…not a cross tha I would want to bear…but what I believe would be required.

How many people can’t get married for some reason?

There are lots - the biggest group are probably those who are divorced, but there are also many people who can’t afford it, or who can’t find partners. Also priests and religious, and in many countries other groups of people not allowed to marry for one reason or another.

 

[Valke2]

Yes, the bible condemns ‘a man laying with another man’.

But Jesus also said ‘judge not and you will not be judged’. ‘For as you judge others, so you will yourselves be judged’. Mat 7: 1-2

There is an argument that has been made, that when the Bible prohibits a man lying with another man “as he would a woman”, it is referring to the face to face position.

 

[rr1213]

There is an argument that has been made, that when the Bible prohibits a man lying with another man “as he would a woman”, it is referring to the face to face position.

I don’t think that this interpretation is what was meant. Also, the issue is quite clarified in Romans.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Whoops

 

[JohnWilliams]

Whoops again.

 

[JimO]

But might we sometimes be a little prone to be “wise in our own conceits” as regards the Jews? Why did God give some of them the “spirit of slumber” - eyes that they could not see and ears that they could not hear - even after the Cross?

I suppose my comment was incomplete. There is the concept of invincible ignorance by which heaven is possible for those who are truly ignorant of the truth; however, they are still saved through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, whether they realize it or not.

But weren’t Old Testament Jewish saints “born again” and filled with the Holy Spirit before the Cross? Weren’t they also an election that is saved by grace through faith?

Given the mystery that Christ’s sacrifice is for all time and, therefore, timeless, we recognize that through His sacrifice those who were alive before Him (whether Jew or Gentile) also could be saved. This is also covered by invincible ignorance. However, the Jews have a special place in salvation history because they are the chosen people in that they were chosen because the Savior was to be brought into the world through them. Thus, any blessings the Jews received throughout their history due to their special status is accounted to them because of Christ.

I have a deep love and respect for the Jews because they are the chosen people. Heaven is possible for all Jews because of invincible ignorance; however, once again, it is only possible because of what Christ did on the cross.

My above comments are not meant to indicate that I believe in ecumenism or “all roads lead to Heaven” because they pertain only to the Jews. But do we sometimes perhaps misunderstand the role of the Jews? That is the good olive tree that we gentile “wild branches” are grafted into.

Yes, and Christ is their Savior, the Son of David, brought forth through the line of Judah. And, Christianity was meant to be the fulfillment of Judaism, but, the religious leaders at the time rejected Christ. In the first century, Christianity was viewed by the rest of the world as a sect of Judaism and it should have become the New Judaism. When Christ offered Himself and the veil of the temple was torn Jesus Himself became the final sacrifice for all time, replacing the temple sacrifices. Perhaps God has a special role for modern Jews, but Christ still died for them and is the only way to the Father.

 

[JimO]

There is an argument that has been made, that when the Bible prohibits a man lying with another man “as he would a woman”, it is referring to the face to face position.

And that is a weak, untenable argument.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Thanks so much for the kind response JimO.

I
Yes, and Christ is their Savior, the Son of David, brought forth through the line of Judah. And, Christianity was meant to be the fulfillment of Judaism, but, the religious leaders at the time rejected Christ. In the first century, Christianity was viewed by the rest of the world as a sect of Judaism and it should have become the New Judaism. When Christ offered Himself and the veil of the temple was torn Jesus Himself became the final sacrifice for all time, replacing the temple sacrifices.

But was it animal sacrifice that saved the Jews, or a circumcision of the heart? While God was pleased that they wanted to obey, wasn’t Jewish salvation a matter of the condition of their heart?

Perhaps God has a special role for modern Jews, but Christ still died for them and is the only way to the Father.

Certainly Christ died for the sins of us all. And I believe Jesus is co-existent with the Father.
While Jesus was slain as a perfect sacrifice for us all, was His blood actually shed from the foundation of the world?

Certainly it is the sinful nature of mankind that killed Him, from Adam and Eve and Cain on up.

So could Old Testament Jews have been saved by the Lamb slain, even before the Cross? Even before He came in the flesh?

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Syele]

All sin is a choice. We choose to do things our way instead of God’s way. We’ve been grasping for apples from the very beginning.

This is my point. We don’t wake up one day and think “Hey, I think I’ll feel really Jealous today!” and in the same way most people wouldn’t get up one day and say “Hey! I think it’d be fun to feel attracted to another person of my own gender today!” Both are things that one just “feels” and does not “decide”. Both are still sin because what causes these feelings is a wrong attitude or an incorrect outlook.

One cannot just suddenly decide to stop being jealous or homosexual, but if they treat the ROOT cause of the problem, it can go away. The problem is finding the root cause in the first place.

In this way, it isn’t a choice, its a feeling or an outlook on life. And they are both very difficult to change. This dosn’t make it unchangeable just because it’s not a concious choice. The choice came in the choice of underlying attitudes or beliefs about life.

 

[JohnWilliams]

This is my point. We don’t wake up one day and think “Hey, I think I’ll feel really Jealous today!” and in the same way most people wouldn’t get up one day and say “Hey! I think it’d be fun to feel attracted to another person of my own gender today!” Both are things that one just “feels” and does not “decide”. Both are still sin because what causes these feelings is a wrong attitude or an incorrect outlook.

One cannot just suddenly decide to stop being jealous or homosexual, but if they treat the ROOT cause of the problem, it can go away. The problem is finding the root cause in the first place.

In this way, it isn’t a choice, its a feeling or an outlook on life. And they are both very difficult to change. This dosn’t make it unchangeable just because it’s not a concious choice. The choice came in the choice of underlying attitudes or beliefs about life.

The statistics regarding homosexual rehabilitation would vindicate your view. Homosexuals enjoy an approximately 30% - 50% rehabilitation rate as compared to much more abismal rates for drugs or alcohol.
exodus-international.org/exodus_faqs_success.shtml
Not that Scripture seems to draw too many distinctions between individual sins. But the liberals, religious or secular, won’t hear it. They choose to encourage them into this desperate lifestyle.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

As huge as Exodus International is look at how they are censored by the liberals at Google in web searches for homosexual rehabilitation. Compare your results in Google to other search engines.

 

[Syele]

The statistics regarding homosexual rehabilitation would vindicate your view. Homosexuals enjoy an approximately 30% - 50% rehabilitation rate as compared to much more abismal rates for drugs or alcohol.
exodus-international.org/exodus_faqs_success.shtml
Not that Scripture seems to draw too many distinctions between individual sins. But the liberals, religious or secular, won’t hear it. They choose to encourage them into this desperate lifestyle.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

As huge as Exodus International is look at how they are censored by the liberals at Google in web searches for homosexual rehabilitation. Compare your results in Google to other search engines.

Thanks for the link, I did not know the actual rehabilitation rates only personal experience.

 

[Valke2]

The statistics regarding homosexual rehabilitation would vindicate your view. Homosexuals enjoy an approximately 30% - 50% rehabilitation rate as compared to much more abismal rates for drugs or alcohol.
exodus-international.org/exodus_faqs_success.shtml
Not that Scripture seems to draw too many distinctions between individual sins. But the liberals, religious or secular, won’t hear it. They choose to encourage them into this desperate lifestyle.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

As huge as Exodus International is look at how they are censored by the liberals at Google in web searches for homosexual rehabilitation. Compare your results in Google to other search engines.

lol. I’ve seen a lot of phony statistics on a lot of topics. This one takes the cake.

Reparative therapy, which is any therapy aimed at changing the sexual orientation of a patient, has come under much criticism in recent years. There is no solid evidence that it works, and many psychologists believe it may be harmful, particularly to young people. The American Psychiatric Association’s official position statement on the issue states “In the last four decades, “reparative” therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, APA recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.”

Groups that reject the idea of reparative therapy include The National Association of Social Workers, The American Psychological Association, The American Psychiatric Association, The American Counseling Association, and The American Academy of Pediatrics.

And you can’t leave out the juicy stuff:

Exodus International’s first scandal occurred in 1979 when Michael Bussee (one of the five co-founding members) left the group to be with Gary Cooper, a volunteer at the local Exodus ministry where they both worked, who was also volunteering for the first Exodus conference. Later they held a life commitment ceremony.

Exodus’ claim to have helped hundreds of thousands of ex-gay men and lesbians has never been certified by an independent audit. To date, Exodus has also declined to release any information on what the estimate is based upon, or how the program success rate is measured (what a shock).

But wait. There’s more.

Exodus International’s most recent and damaging scandal involved John Paulk who became the public face for the organization in its 1998 marketing push to promote its programs. Paulk became active in Focus on the Family and was also the elected chairman of the board of Exodus International North America. A former prostitute and drag queen, Paulk and his wife Anne (nee Edward), a self-described “former lesbian,” enjoyed high profile publicity for their work with Exodus and as examples of “ex-gays” from their program.

On September 19, 2000 while on a speaking tour, Paulk was identified drinking and flirting at Mr. P’s, a Washington DC gay bar, giving his name as “John Clint”, one he had used in his days as a hustler in Ohio. Paulk admitted being in the bar, but stated that he didn’t know it was a gay bar and had simply stopped in for a moment to use the restroom. However, eyewitnesses reported that Paulk stayed for more than an hour, flirted with other men, and when questioned about his sexuality, said he was gay (see Besen’s book Anything But Straight).

 

[JohnWilliams]

lol. I’ve seen a lot of phony statistics on a lot of topics. This one takes the cake.

Reparative therapy, which is any therapy aimed at changing the sexual orientation of a patient, has come under much criticism in recent years. There is no solid evidence that it works, and many psychologists believe it may be harmful, particularly to young people. The American Psychiatric Association’s official position statement on the issue states “In the last four decades, “reparative” therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, APA recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.”
.

Is this supposed to be a surprise to Christians?

Groups that reject the idea of reparative therapy include The National Association of Social Workers, .

Another surprise?

The American Psychological Association, .

This is a surprise?

The American Psychiatric Association, .

And particularly this association? They don’t even have a clue as to what to do with MPDs.

The American Counseling Association, and The American Academy of Pediatrics.
.

And yet another secular organization?

And you can’t leave out the juicy stuff:

Exodus International’s first scandal occurred in 1979 when Michael Bussee (one of the five co-founding members) left the group to be with Gary Cooper, a volunteer at the local Exodus ministry where they both worked, who was also volunteering for the first Exodus conference. Later they held a life commitment ceremony.
.

At least the heart of this poster is exposed. Judge the good of an organization by a couple of individuals who succumbed to the flesh? Who had previously exhibited a proclivity thereto?

Exodus’ claim to have helped hundreds of thousands of ex-gay men and lesbians has never been certified by an independent audit. To date, Exodus has also declined to release any information on what the estimate is based upon, or how the program success rate is measured (what a shock).

But wait. There’s more.

Exodus International’s most recent and damaging scandal involved John Paulk who became the public face for the organization in its 1998 marketing push to promote its programs. Paulk became active in Focus on the Family and was also the elected chairman of the board of Exodus International North America. A former prostitute and drag queen, Paulk and his wife Anne (nee Edward), a self-described “former lesbian,” enjoyed high profile publicity for their work with Exodus and as examples of “ex-gays” from their program.
.

And another couple of induviduals.

On September 19, 2000 while on a speaking tour, Paulk was identified drinking and flirting at Mr. P’s, a Washington DC gay bar, giving his name as “John Clint”, one he had used in his days as a hustler in Ohio. Paulk admitted being in the bar, but stated that he didn’t know it was a gay bar and had simply stopped in for a moment to use the restroom. However, eyewitnesses reported that Paulk stayed for more than an hour, flirted with other men, and when questioned about his sexuality, said he was gay (see Besen’s book Anything But Straight).

And another indivudual. Well done. There is no shortage of wolfs among the flock. Valke2, what you may not be taking into account is that your life on this earth is but a vapor. Your eternity is forever.

If you are interested in an understanding of the spirit world that few have seen there is a couple of every day saints that ran an online ministry for MPDs that may help with an introduction thereto. It is a free PDF book: Shining Man With Hurt Hands:
fish-house.com/pdf/ShiningMan.pdf

I have been called away from posting to you, Valke2, and unless by accident, likely will not communicate further.

 

[JohnWilliams]

Additionally equating Palestinian majority vote for Hamas, to Snapple bottle caps, may well have contributed to my not being called to post with you. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1642955&postcount=52

 

[Valke2]

Additionally equating Palestinian majority vote for Hamas, to Snapple bottle caps, may well have contributed to by not being called to post with you. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1642955&postcount=52

I’m sorry. I can tell my words confused you. I’ll simplify. Democracy needs a middle class base to work.

And yes. When an organization dedicated to converting gays to heterosexuals has three of its high profile people engage in homosexual acts, and when that same organization makes blanket statements about the nubmers of “converted” without providing any evidence, then I think it is worth mentioning. And even joking about.