EDITED: Are Special Liturgies "Abusive"?

[dskysmine]

Good afternoon everyone,

I was just reading a few things about Fr. Walter J Ciszek and other priests who usually consecrated in very extreme situations (in prision, in concentration camps). If we consider the liturgical obligations are these kind of consecrations considered “abuse”?
What if a priest inside a prision doesn’t have access to wine, how is he supposed to say mass? Could they in those conditions consecrate only bread?
How flexible is liturgy?

 

[MarkThompson]

Good afternoon everyone,

I was just reading a few things about Fr. Walter J Ciszek and other priests who usually consecrated in very extreme situations (in prision, in concentration camps). If we consider the liturgical obligations are these kind of consecrations considered “abuse”?
What if a priest inside a prision doesn’t have access to wine, how is he supposed to say mass? Could they in those conditions consecrate only bread?
How flexible is liturgy?

In general, grave necessity provides an exception to most prescribed liturgical norms. In some matters – for instance, the specific one you ask about – the law states otherwise and grave necessity is of no avail:
Can. 927 It is absolutely forbidden, even in extreme urgent necessity, to consecrate one matter without the other or even both outside the eucharistic celebration.
Thus, there is no Mass without both bread and wine. In other matters, judgment has to be made of whether the nature of the norm is divine or manmade. You cannot consecrate fermented coconut juice just because you are stranded on a remote island in the South Pacific, but nobody will blame you if the raft you washed ashore on didn’t come with a complete set of chasubles in all the liturgical colors.

 

[laszlo]

Good afternoon everyone,

I was just reading a few things about Fr. Walter J Ciszek and other priests who usually consecrated in very extreme situations (in prision, in concentration camps). If we consider the liturgical obligations are these kind of consecrations considered “abuse”?
What if a priest inside a prision doesn’t have access to wine, how is he supposed to say mass? Could they in those conditions consecrate only bread?
How flexible is liturgy?

What they did in the prison that asked for raisin, let it fermented for a week or so, and used it as wine. The other regulation (chalice from precious material, exact text from the missal) were broken.

The liturgy is flexible for extreme circumstances, the matter and form of the sacrament cannot be flexible.

 

[Mattapoisett64]

There are so many “abuse” threads, questions, and preoccupations on these boards. IMO, nothing is accomplished by framing a possible “abuse” accusation or question when the setting is a concentration camp!

 

[benedictgal]

What they did in the prison that asked for raisin, let it fermented for a week or so, and used it as wine. The other regulation (chalice from precious material, exact text from the missal) were broken.

The liturgy is flexible for extreme circumstances, the matter and form of the sacrament cannot be flexible.

In Mexico, during the time of Blessed Miguel Pro, the Church granted special permission in times of persecution, for the celebration of Mass in private homes or wherever the faithful could gather in safety. The government had closed the churches, confiscated the precious sacred vessels and committed other horrible acts against Catholics. Blessed Miguel Pro would hear confessions in some of the unlikeliest places and would have to don disguises to baptize infants, bless marriages and confer the other sacraments.

 

[Jim_Roberts]

It depends on the designated situation.

Yes, one must have wine to make the mass valid; but again, if it is made for him, then, he can consecrate the bread.

As you know, the bread alone also has the wine. So when receiving the bread, you are in reality receiving the body and blood of Christ

I am just guessing, but according to the CHurch’s law,. you would need the wine,. otherwise how could you pronoiunce the consecration without the wine?

When it says: Jesus took the wine…How can he say this if it abstained?

 

[nanacat]

When Cardinal Nguyen van Thuan was in solitary confinement in a Vietnamese prison camp he used stale crumbs of bread he held in his own hand. (What he used for the wine, I don’t remember, I never read his book–I believe it was called The Road to Hope, or something similar, but I was very moved when my pastor told us the story many years ago). And he is being considered for Beatification, so I doubt that would be considered “abuse” by even the hardest of hearts.

 

[Domnall]

When Cardinal Nguyen van Thuan was in solitary confinement in a Vietnamese prison camp he used stale crumbs of bread he held in his own hand. (What he used for the wine, I don’t remember, I never read his book–I believe it was called The Road to Hope, or something similar, but I was very moved when my pastor told us the story many years ago). And he is being considered for Beatification, so I doubt that would be considered “abuse” by even the hardest of hearts.

He managed to be allowed small vials of wine for “stomach pains.” He would use two drops of wine and one drop of water for the consecration.

Also, he practiced Eucharist adoration in solitary confinement as well as with the general prison population. He truly was an amazing man.

 

[TheMc]

It’s saddening to hear many railing against those who care about the liturgy. Obviously, if you are in a prison camp, it is ok to celebrate without vestments, without a purificator, without the proper readings of the day, etc…

The problem is when priests completely ignore these regulations without a good reason. I see pictures all the time from neighboring parishes where the 8th grade graduates got to stand around the altar during the EP, or the pastor wears a “touching” stole over his chusable, etc…

There is a big difference between the two situations, and the jabs are not appreciated.