J
joanofarc2008
Guest
Yep - I agree - Josephite marriages for all - no perpetuation of the species.
So well put.
- Status
So well put.
C
Corki
Guest
Now that was uncalled for.
You know I wasn’t talking about motivation to get married but motivation to start the tribunal process. Maybe you don’t see this at the tribunal level but at the parish level, there are many more people who see the petition for a decree of nullity as just a hoop they need to jump through to get to the goal of new spouse. They aren’t really interested in the question of whether their marriage was valid or not.
J
JRKH
Guest
Corki…Now that was uncalled for.
I am intrigued by this view.
Why do you think this is? After all, there is certainly nothing in civil law that bars them from their, “goal of a new spouse”. For that matter there would be little problem finding a Christian minister to perform the ceremony for them.
So - What makes them feel that an annulment is a “hoop they need to jump through” if their goal can be so easily achieved in other ways?
Is it “culture”? - A desire to continue receiving the sacraments? - A need to feel "right with the Church? - Family pressure? Other???
I’m quite serious in asking this, as it pertains to the subject of this thread, because the answer(s) can be of great import in discovering some of the underlying causes of too many D.O.N.'s being issued / too many divorces among Catholic couples…
I look forward to your (name removed by moderator)ut.
Peace
James
C
Corki
Guest
I can only speak from my personal encounters. I do know a few individuals who went through the process for the sole reason of determining the validity of the marriage. In each of these cases, the process was started before they were seriously involved with someone new.
In the other group, which again is only from my own experience, are those who are already in a relationship. Usually it’s a non-Catholic (or a non-praciticing Catholic) who was previously married and then divorced who is engaged to a Catholic. Since the only way the practicing Catholic can get validly married is for the divorced person to seek a decree of nullity, they start the process. Now, I am not saying that their only motivation is to move an obstacle out of their way but it seems to be the main one. In fact, if the divorced person is not Catholic, an investigation of validity may not even have been on their radar until they found themselves in love with a Catholic.
Also, in this group are those people who fell away from the Church, got remarried and now are trying to make things right. While the motive to “make things right” is a very good motive, it seems that what they primarily want is to “fix” the current union and make it acceptable to the Church rather than an honest answer about the prior union. Again, the only way to do this is to investigate the prior union.
The sad thing is that with these last two groups, if the decision of the tribunal is that the prior bond was actually a valid marrige, they don’t have a “plan B”. If that were to happen, they often just continue on with their invalid marriage or marriage plans or, worse, they leave the Church.
At least in the United States I *suspect *the vast majority of people seeking rulings of nullity are as described here. I would go so far as to suspect the majority of people seeking rulings of nullity are not Catholic (although they may be hoping to become Catholic.)
That’s why I think marriage prep can only do so much. I think Catholics make up just a fraction of those seeking rulings of nullity --at least for themselves. (The Catholic parties to potential marriages would seem to be the driving forces behind the majority of non-Catholics who seek rulings of nullity in order to marry Catholics.)
J
JRKH
Guest
Thanks for the explanations. These make much more sense to me than the idea expressed earlier about it being, “just a hoop they need to jump through to get to the goal of new spouse”…
In the first part of your second group, it seems that that the non-catholic wishes to please their intended…a good Loving gesture and the Catholic party wishes to be fully engages in the faith with a proper and valid sacramental marriage…Also a very loving gesture.
The second part of that second group is perhaps the most complex of the issues.
I have very personal experience with this one since it describes my situation very well. Of course like you I can only speak from personal experience but I must say that in my desire to “set things right” with the Church, I was entirely willing to have the first marriage examined. I could not lie on the application or questionnaire for to do so would have been like drilling holes in the bottom of the lifeboat I was hoping to get into…
That said, you are right in that I really did not have a “plan 'B”…Especially since, due to her health issues, would not have been able to leave my present spouse even if the prior bond had been upheld…Obviously not a common case…but that was my experience.
Thankfully I did receive an Affirmative decision and did not have to deal with that problem…
But enough about me…
Anyway - I think your explanations demonstrate how a quick short comment can convey a very different sense than what one finds when one considers it more carefully…
Peace
James
V
Vico
Guest
Except it is not necessarily lusting. CCC 2351 “Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure.”Yep - I agree - Josephite marriages for all - no perpetuation of the species.
Note the words *disordered *and inordinate. It is not sexual desire or enjoyment itself that is the problem.
L
LouiseL
Guest
This is demonstrably true. Except for those situations where there is serious, life-threatening danger, or serial adultery, spouses must live together. When a spouse leaves the other for no serious reason (this is the case most of the time - only a small proportion of divorces are for violence or adultery) they do tell lies. And where they don’t tell lies, they spread slander (i.e. destroy the reputation of the spouse they abandon, even when they are telling the truth). Not only that, but they tell things which may or may not be true depending upon mere perception or differing values. People I know have accused their spouse of “not caring” - what garbage! Can such an accusation even be proved? What one person perceives as “not caring” is not always the same as what others perceive. “Love” and “respect” often mean different things to different people as far as their demonstration goes.
Consequently I never believe anything an abandoning spouse says - as a matter of principle. A small exception is the accusation of violence/adultery, but even that I don’t believe outright - I reserve judgement. However, most other people I know seem to believe abandoning spouses implicitly. Why? It’s ridiculous. But that is what our society does.
And consequently the abandoned spouse ends up not only losing their spouse, they often lose their kids, their house, and their very reputation. It is a gross injustice. I have never yet heard of a compelling reason for a marital separation (except those which are backed up by suitable action - e.g. the admission of a psychotic spouse for psychiatric treatment, or criminal charges of violence etc). Idiotic ideas like “we grew apart” or “we weren’t suited” or “we had nothing in common any more” or “you’re like a father to me” wah wah wah. All garbage and nonsense.
And yet people give it credence. Why?
L
LouiseL
Guest
Serra, socially speaking, people have not needed to marry merely in order to engage in sex for really quite some decades now.
Most men and women do not marry merely in order to have sex. They usually do it for love, and to have a family. Most people. Most people are not marrying because of lust. They cohabit etc because of lust. Sexual intercourse is a privelege of marriage, which is in itself a difficult vocation.
L
LouiseL
Guest
James, we were referring to different things. I was saying that it might be fairly uncommon that the petitioner for an annulment was an abandoning spouse. That’s what I thought we were talking about.
You were talking about my assertion that abandoning spouses do typically tell lies etc. I was certainly not saying this is uncommon. On the contrary, I am asserting that this is normally true. It is indeed a sweeping statement.
L
LouiseL
Guest
I started my first post here with a discussion about no-fault divorce b/c some people here were defending this monstrosity of a law.
As for annulments - I’m not sure exactly how the process should be fixed, b/c I have very limited knowledge about the process and what can reasonably be done. I do know there are too many annulments and that these are undermining the church’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage.
I do know I would be very grateful if people with divorces/“ex-spouses”/annulments would keep it to themselves (I mean in the real world, not here where we are specifically discussion it), b/c I find it to be such a repulsive topic.
I also know I would like to feel secure that my local tribunal would actually and adequately defend my own bond, if it ever came to that, and assume it to be valid until proven otherwise beyond all reasonable doubt. That, however,* is not the mentality I hear echoed in this diocese.*
I do think it’s terrible that orthodox, faithful Catholics are discriminated against in civil law. Our Church does not believe in divorce, but if the state declares one’s marriage to be “dissolved” in law, then one is compelled to note this in official forms etc. I do not ever acknowledge my marital status as “separated” on any official form. I always write that I am married, b/c that is what I am in God’s eyes and the eyes of the Church. In doing so, I am probably breaking the law. I don’t care. God’s laws are above the laws of man.
Yet is not the Church co-operating with this evil by requiring a civil divorce prior to any application for an annulment?
As for annulments - I’m not sure exactly how the process should be fixed, b/c I have very limited knowledge about the process and what can reasonably be done. I do know there are too many annulments and that these are undermining the church’s teaching on the indissolubility of marriage.
I do know I would be very grateful if people with divorces/“ex-spouses”/annulments would keep it to themselves (I mean in the real world, not here where we are specifically discussion it), b/c I find it to be such a repulsive topic.
I also know I would like to feel secure that my local tribunal would actually and adequately defend my own bond, if it ever came to that, and assume it to be valid until proven otherwise beyond all reasonable doubt. That, however,* is not the mentality I hear echoed in this diocese.*
I do think it’s terrible that orthodox, faithful Catholics are discriminated against in civil law. Our Church does not believe in divorce, but if the state declares one’s marriage to be “dissolved” in law, then one is compelled to note this in official forms etc. I do not ever acknowledge my marital status as “separated” on any official form. I always write that I am married, b/c that is what I am in God’s eyes and the eyes of the Church. In doing so, I am probably breaking the law. I don’t care. God’s laws are above the laws of man.
Yet is not the Church co-operating with this evil by requiring a civil divorce prior to any application for an annulment?
J
jmcrae
Guest
If there is doubt about the validity of your marriage while you are still married, you can still go to the Tribunal to have an investigation done, but it wouldn’t be a nullity proceeding; it would be with a view towards convalidation (if it should prove necessary). This sort of thing also happens all the time - and also seems to take forever and ever.
P
Pug
Guest
I’ve not heard of this before. What if you are reasonably sure they won’t be able to verify that the problem is overcome? Would they investigate in that case, even if it probably can’t be convalidated? What do they do once they can’t establish that they can convalidate? Do they make you divorce?If there is doubt about the validity of your marriage while you are still married, you can still go to the Tribunal to have an investigation done, but it wouldn’t be a nullity proceeding; it would be with a view towards convalidation (if it should prove necessary). This sort of thing also happens all the time - and also seems to take forever and ever.
(Note: this is relevant to my life)
S
SerraSemper
Guest
My point has little to do with how much lust is or is not involved with the rationale for getting married. Some posters want to postpone allowing people to file for annulments or making the burden of proof “higher” for “non-innocent spouses” for them based on their intentions (such as to get married to another person, etc.). I was simply pointing out that if we were going to be consistent with this, we should screen people getting ready for marriage to make sure they weren’t suffering from lust, because lust is an imperfect motivation to get married… just like wanting to get married when one is applying for an annulment is an imperfect motivation (perhaps) for filing for an annulment. In other words, let’s let people exercise their rights in the Church. Lust is not an impediment for marriage the last time I checked. Nor is being in a civil (re) marriage an impediment for an annulment trial.
C
Corki
Guest
In the US, the tribunal won’t look at the validity of a marriage unless there is already a civil divorce. The only exception is when there is a lack of form or other administrative question to the validity.
A marriage that is “intact” has the presumption of validity.
If you think there is some invalidity in the marriage but you don’t want to divorce, why would you start a tribunal investigation?
S
SerraSemper
Guest
I was being sarcastic here. Let me explain.
Person without canonical impediment has right to marry.
I sarcastically said that person who is lusting should be banned from marriage.
Person who is in civil remarriage or divorced or separated… has the right to an annulment trial.
Posters in this thread think that such a person should wait even longer than the Church requires (a civil divorce) to get their marriage judged. Or they think that their reasons should be okay before they can file. Or that they should somehow be deemed an innocent spouse before they file.
In both situations, a person has a Divine, canonical, and natural right to marry. And a Divine, canonical, and natural right to know their marital status.
In all situations it is the practice of the Catholic Church to base the decision on whether to allow marriage or to investigate a marriage on the relevant laws. Restrictions on rights are taken very seriously and are not done as a general rule. Particularly when restrictions are on unproved things (innocent vs guilty spouse) or on internal forum matters (person is lusting).
Both a so-called innocent spouse and a so-called guilty spouse have a right to challenge their marriage. So does the Promoter of Justice. Sometimes BOtH spouses are innocent. Again, what is at stake is not how the parties feel about it, or how their relationship is with each other or with their kids or parish or whatever. What is at stake is whether the bond of marriage exists or not between the parties. THAT is the point of contention in an annulment trial. That is the question. That is what the Tribunal investigates and judges. Or, more specifically, is the presumptive bond between Sue and John Doe null because of this invalidating factor(s). The burden of proof of INVALIDITY is up to the parties. IF the proof - regardless of who gives it - is insufficient for the judges in two separate tribunals to come to moral certitude that the bond does not exist, then they do not say that the marriage is proven valid, they simply say that the presumption of validity has not been overturned. Big difference. No one can prove a valid marriage in our courts- only presumed validity.
Q
Qwestions
Guest
Requests for annulments aren’t going to drop until we help these husbands and wives restore the love they once shared. We’d best center our time and money to repairing the damage so that it doesn’t reach the need for an annulment request. We can cut down on the number of divorces the same way we can cut down on the number of lapsed Catholics–both Cradle Catholics and Revolving Door Converts (in through the front door, and out through the back, after a few months or years): INCLUDE people in study, social, and action groups within the church. What kind of groups? Religious study groups, yes, but also groups for hobbies, careers, stages in life (seniors, empty nesters, teens, etc.).
The Catholic Church is known for its aloofness and arms-length interactions. Parish life once revolved around the large families who kept the school going. Singles were not totally alone, as in no-family-in-the-entire-city, the way they are today; rather, they usually were part of a larger, extended family. Almost every parishioner had family in the church, or, at least elsewhere in the community. Life revolved around activities connected to the parish church and school.
Such is not the case today. Many lovely churches and their schools have been sold in our city. Many more of the parishes still hanging on have empty, deteriorating schools standing as silent sentinels to the exodus across the city. Masses are no longer standing room only; many aren’t even half-full. People dash up the steps moments before Mass begins and bomb out as quickly as possible, even before the final blessing.
WE HAVE LOST ALL CONNECTION TO OUR PARISHES! Therein lies our problem, which multiplies exponentially. Shock waves emanate across the pews, the waning schools, and into divorce and tribunal courts.
If you’ve been having disconnect problems in your marriage, with whom do you discuss the problem? Where do you go to hear possible solutions? How do you learn of ways to strengthen your marriage? What if the problem has to do with money? With wayward children over whom you seem to have no control? With feeling neglected? With a cheating spouse?
Will you discuss such problems with your own family members or those of your spouse? Your co-workers, neighbors, carpool mothers, bowling league members–all of whom likely have no Catholic perspective? How are you to fortify your faith and solve your problems when you have almost no opportunity to interact with those sharing your Catholic faith? If the ones who give you advice are lukewarm Catholic, not Catholic, or, worse, anti-Catholic, how do you stand a chance? What, in addition to reception of the Holy Eucharist and participation in Mass, feeds your weary soul?
Our churches need intercommunication from parishioner to parishioner and from church to church within our communities. We need to know that we can go to an AA meeting at a parish 13 miles away on Tuesdays, and to a meeting for Catholic caregivers in our own parish on Thursdays. We need support groups–CATHOLIC support groups–for the different types of problems with which we’re struggling. We need support BEFORE we get to the struggling stage. We need pitch-in dinners, sports opportunities, religious study groups, and get-togethers for all the types of activities we pursue in the secular world. How can we possibly get support for a Catholic family unit when we don’t associate with Catholics and our only osmosis opportunity for the faith to rub off on us is during the sacrifice of the Mass?
The divorce problem is but one facet of a systemic illness faced by the Catholic Church today. The patient is dying, but maybe some alternative medicine will bring life back to us all, allowing us to once again thrive. One thing is certain: what we’ve been doing hasn’t been working. Most of you are too young to know what a vibrant church life might be: how it can bring a spring to your step and a lilt in your voice as you look forward to interacting with fellow parishioners.
Do you call parishioners when you need a plumber, electrician, haircut, dentist, or computer technician? Do you even know what lines of work your fellow parishioners are enmeshed in each day? A strong sense of CATHOLIC COMMUNITY will do much to make our lives run more smoothly, our churches sizzling with hope and ambition, and our marriages damage-proof. We need to combine our energies to restore life to our churches; we’ll have fewer lapsed Catholics and fewer lapsed marriages.
Best wishes to all, especially to our dwindling parishes and hurting families.
The Catholic Church is known for its aloofness and arms-length interactions. Parish life once revolved around the large families who kept the school going. Singles were not totally alone, as in no-family-in-the-entire-city, the way they are today; rather, they usually were part of a larger, extended family. Almost every parishioner had family in the church, or, at least elsewhere in the community. Life revolved around activities connected to the parish church and school.
Such is not the case today. Many lovely churches and their schools have been sold in our city. Many more of the parishes still hanging on have empty, deteriorating schools standing as silent sentinels to the exodus across the city. Masses are no longer standing room only; many aren’t even half-full. People dash up the steps moments before Mass begins and bomb out as quickly as possible, even before the final blessing.
WE HAVE LOST ALL CONNECTION TO OUR PARISHES! Therein lies our problem, which multiplies exponentially. Shock waves emanate across the pews, the waning schools, and into divorce and tribunal courts.
If you’ve been having disconnect problems in your marriage, with whom do you discuss the problem? Where do you go to hear possible solutions? How do you learn of ways to strengthen your marriage? What if the problem has to do with money? With wayward children over whom you seem to have no control? With feeling neglected? With a cheating spouse?
Will you discuss such problems with your own family members or those of your spouse? Your co-workers, neighbors, carpool mothers, bowling league members–all of whom likely have no Catholic perspective? How are you to fortify your faith and solve your problems when you have almost no opportunity to interact with those sharing your Catholic faith? If the ones who give you advice are lukewarm Catholic, not Catholic, or, worse, anti-Catholic, how do you stand a chance? What, in addition to reception of the Holy Eucharist and participation in Mass, feeds your weary soul?
Our churches need intercommunication from parishioner to parishioner and from church to church within our communities. We need to know that we can go to an AA meeting at a parish 13 miles away on Tuesdays, and to a meeting for Catholic caregivers in our own parish on Thursdays. We need support groups–CATHOLIC support groups–for the different types of problems with which we’re struggling. We need support BEFORE we get to the struggling stage. We need pitch-in dinners, sports opportunities, religious study groups, and get-togethers for all the types of activities we pursue in the secular world. How can we possibly get support for a Catholic family unit when we don’t associate with Catholics and our only osmosis opportunity for the faith to rub off on us is during the sacrifice of the Mass?
The divorce problem is but one facet of a systemic illness faced by the Catholic Church today. The patient is dying, but maybe some alternative medicine will bring life back to us all, allowing us to once again thrive. One thing is certain: what we’ve been doing hasn’t been working. Most of you are too young to know what a vibrant church life might be: how it can bring a spring to your step and a lilt in your voice as you look forward to interacting with fellow parishioners.
Do you call parishioners when you need a plumber, electrician, haircut, dentist, or computer technician? Do you even know what lines of work your fellow parishioners are enmeshed in each day? A strong sense of CATHOLIC COMMUNITY will do much to make our lives run more smoothly, our churches sizzling with hope and ambition, and our marriages damage-proof. We need to combine our energies to restore life to our churches; we’ll have fewer lapsed Catholics and fewer lapsed marriages.
Best wishes to all, especially to our dwindling parishes and hurting families.
P
Pug
Guest
Ah, so it was a Canadian (country specific) answer. That explains why I hadn’t heard of it.
Because some days I want to know, that’s why. Perhaps that is difficult to understand, wondering if we are completely off track, engaged in a pointless waste of our lives? I don’t know. I have confused thoughts about it now and then, and the rest of the time I try to live with the idea that I am supposed to assume everything is okay when nothing has seemed right ever. There are more reasons than I can say here.
J
JRKH
Guest
J
jmcrae
Guest
The Tribunal doesn’t do marriage counseling, that I am aware of. If there is an identifiable problem, you want Family Services; you don’t want the Tribunal.
If convalidation were necessary, they would recommend it. There is no “can’t” unless one (or both) of the parties is unwilling to enter into a Catholic marriage.
Certainly not. Why would they?
- Status