EDITED: Feast of the Baptism of Jesus 1st Sunday Ordinary Time ends Christmas season?

[DelsonJacobs]

We’ll, no, yesterday was not the 2nd Sunday in OT; that is next week.

And yes, there is a 1st Sunday in OT…it was yesterday.

However it is not formally called the first Sunday in OT, because it is also marks the close of the Christmas season.

The reason, technically it is the 1st, is because the liturgical week starts, and not ends, on Sunday.

Regardless, nothing to lose sleep over!

Yes. And this explains it a bit better than I do.

Normally, liturgical weeks begin on a Sunday, but the Christmas Season ends with a Sunday Evening Prayer. Therefore the Ist Sunday of Ordinary Time takes a back seat to being the last Sunday of Christmas.

It is just a technical thing about feasts. A feast turns a regular Sunday into the feast day itself; it is never “ordinary.”

 

[on_the_hill]

I’ll have to read through the replies to sort it out, but our missal clearly stated “Second Sunday of Ordinary Time” as the heading for yesterday’s liturgy.

 

[on_the_hill]

Regardless, nothing to lose sleep over!

But when I can’t sleep, I need something to help me sleep!

 

[PacoG]

I note that in recent times the Epiphany is often described as embracing three manifestations of Jesus - to the Wise Men, in the Baptism by John, and by the miracle of the wine at Cana. Thus the Feast of the Baptism provides a completion to the Solemnity of the Epiphany.

That is what our pastor told us last year. Years that are Year C have all three manifestations.

 

[PacoG]

Hey everyone. I am confused. In the missalettes it says that this coming Sunday is the second Sunday in ordinary time but our priest said this past Sunday that it was still the Christmas season. So how can the past Sunday be the Christmas Season and yet also the first Sunday in Ordinary Time? Thanks for your answers.

Someoen pease explain…

I have always been confused by Christmas because it seems to have five meanings:

1. Christmas Day.
2. The Octave of Christmas which starts on Christmas and ends on the Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God (which shares Jan. 1 with the Feast of the Circumcision of the Lord).

3, The Twelve Days of Christmas which start of Christmas and ends on the traditionally observed Solemnity of the Epiphany.

1. The Short Christmas Season (for lack of a better phrase) which starts on Christmas Day and ends on the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord.
2. The Expanded Christmas Season (for lack of a better phrase) which starts of Christmas Day and concludes on Candlemas Day.

Someone please explain. Why is the Christmas Season so contorted? Why do Christmas Season and the beginning of Ordinary Time seem to run parallel?

 

[Magdalen2013]

Someoen pease explain…

I have always been confused by Christmas because it seems to have five meanings:

1. Christmas Day.
2. The Octave of Christmas which starts on Christmas and ends on the Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God (which shares Jan. 1 with the Feast of the Circumcision of the Lord).

3, The Twelve Days of Christmas which start of Christmas and ends on the traditionally observed Solemnity of the Epiphany.

1. The Short Christmas Season (for lack of a better phrase) which starts on Christmas Day and ends on the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord.
2. The Expanded Christmas Season (for lack of a better phrase) which starts of Christmas Day and concludes on Candlemas Day.

Someone please explain. Why is the Christmas Season so contorted? Why do Christmas Season and the beginning of Ordinary Time seem to run parallel?

A lot of it involves the holiday celebrations in different countries, and some of it is how feasts/solemnities are handled by the liturgy. Also, the liturgical day begins at sunset.

1. “Christmas Day” begins at the Vigil Mass on what we call Christmas Eve.
2. The Octave of Christmas is always the eight days that follow the feast. AFAICT, all the big feasts have an Octave that follows them?
3. The Twelve Days mark the span from Christmas to Epiphany, and may owe their origin to the Saturnalia celebrated by the Romans. Celebration of them can vary depending on locale – in medieval times they were very popular in England, but the Puritans stomped that flat.
4. The “Short Christmas Season” is the one recognized by the Church, from the first Mass of Christmas up to and including the Solemnity of the Baptism of the Lord. Note: The latter WOULD be the first Sunday in Ordinary Time, but a Solemnity pre-empts whatever the day would have normally been.*
5. The “Long Christmas Season” used to be THE Christmas season, but fell out of favor because in some years you’d end the Christmas season on February 2nd, only to have Ash Wednesday a week later. The Church wished for a greater separation, so the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord was used to signal the end of Christmas and turned the congregation toward Christ’s adult ministry in preparation for the Lenten season.

*For a better understanding of this, you might want to look at one of the versions of the Liturgy of the Hours (LOTH) which explains the differences.

 

[PacoG]

1. The “Long Christmas Season” used to be THE Christmas season, but fell out of favor because in some years you’d end the Christmas season on February 2nd, only to have Ash Wednesday a week later. The Church wished for a greater separation, so the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord was used to signal the end of Christmas and turned the congregation toward Christ’s adult ministry in preparation for the Lenten season.

I don’t think this is correct. Ash Wednesday and Lent have always been based on Easter which isn’t fixed. Easter varies from year to year and can be as early as late March and as late as the last week of April.

 

[Magdalen2013]

I know that Ash Wednesday is based on Easter – but in the years that Easter falls on March 22, Ash Wednesday falls on February 4th, which is two days after Candlemas (February 2nd) – and in the past that would have meant going straight from the Christmas season into the Lenten season.

 

[FrDavid96]

What makes this confusing is that the Roman Missal states that the Sunday of the Baptism of the Lord is also the “First Sunday of Ordinary Time” --at least that’s what it says on the title of the page for that day. That’s also what it says on the title pages of the Lectionaries (at least the ones I’ve seen, and there are many different printings out there, but my parish uses the ones that are the most common).

The rubric in the Roman Missal however, states that Ordinary Time begins on Monday (ie, the next day, not some later Monday). The rubric repeats what’s in the GIRM, which Dans0602 quoted earlier in this thread.

It’s not the titles (printed in the books) but the norms that are authoritative.

It’s understandable that a lot of the people who make preparations for Mass (like typing the bulletins or the hymn guides, etc.) will look at the Lectionary page, knowing that they’re on the correct page, and read that the Baptism of the Lord is called the “First Sunday of Ordinary Time” and so use that in their own local printing.

The law here is expressed in the GIRM and the norms for the calendar. Both of these agree that Ordinary Time begins on Monday. There simply is no “first Sunday of OT” despite the fact that at the top of the pages for the Missal and Lectionary, those words are used. Go figure.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I think that the First and Last [34th] Sundays in Ordinary Time exist. However, they are always outranked by Feasts or Solemnities. The First Sunday is usually outranked by the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord, though I think it may be outranked by the Solemnity of the Epiphany in certain years. The Last Sunday is always outranked by the Solemnity of Christ the King.

Note that this year the Fourth Sunday falls on February 2; so is outranked by the Feast of the Presentation of the Lord [Candlemas].

 

[FrDavid96]

I think that the First and Last [34th] Sundays in Ordinary Time exist. …

The first doesn’t. The last does.

General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar
44. Ordinary Time begins on Monday after the Sunday following 6 January and continues until Tuesday before Ash Wednesday inclusive. It begins again on Monday after Pentecost and ends before evening prayer I of the First Sunday of Advent.

source: ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM

This is the Church’s law. It’s not a matter of “I think” it’s a matter of what the law says.

Now, personally “I think” it doesn’t make one bit of difference in the end.

I don’t see how it matters one bit if the Sunday of the Baptism of the Lord is counted as a Sunday in Ordinary Time or not. We celebrate the Baptism and that’s what’s important. What season it “belongs to” doesn’t matter one bit, because even if the Church were to change #44 to read “Ordinary Time begins with first Vespers of the Baptism of the Lord” nothing would change–not a single thing.

As I see it, this is a “distinction without a difference.”

It makes for some nice trivia conversation here on the boards, but that’s about all.

Technically, the Baptism occurs as the last celebration of the entire Christmas season. I can see why the Church does it that way—celebrating His Baptism naturally completes the season of His birth and the following events. But, as others have already noted, He was age 30 at the time, so one could just as easily say that it makes perfect sense to begin “Ordinary Time” with that event.

 

[Joe_5859]

The first doesn’t. The last does.

General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar
44. Ordinary Time begins on Monday after the Sunday following 6 January and continues until Tuesday before Ash Wednesday inclusive. It begins again on Monday after Pentecost and ends before evening prayer I of the First Sunday of Advent.

source: ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM

This is the Church’s law. It’s not a matter of “I think” it’s a matter of what the law says.

Now, personally “I think” it doesn’t make one bit of difference in the end.

I don’t see how it matters one bit if the Sunday of the Baptism of the Lord is counted as a Sunday in Ordinary Time or not. We celebrate the Baptism and that’s what’s important. What season it “belongs to” doesn’t matter one bit, because even if the Church were to change #44 to read “Ordinary Time begins with first Vespers of the Baptism of the Lord” nothing would change–not a single thing.

As I see it, this is a “distinction without a difference.”

It makes for some nice trivia conversation here on the boards, but that’s about all.

Technically, the Baptism occurs as the last celebration of the entire Christmas season. I can see why the Church does it that way—celebrating His Baptism naturally completes the season of His birth and the following events. But, as others have already noted, He was age 30 at the time, so one could just as easily say that it makes perfect sense to begin “Ordinary Time” with that event.

Don’t downplay the CAF trivia angle.

Well put. Thanks for the link to the document. That’s what I thought was the case, but I had just been going off of what “I think”.

 

[on_the_hill]

The first doesn’t. The last does.

General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar
44. Ordinary Time begins on Monday after the Sunday following 6 January and continues until Tuesday before Ash Wednesday inclusive. It begins again on Monday after Pentecost and ends before evening prayer I of the First Sunday of Advent.

source: ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM

This is the Church’s law. It’s not a matter of “I think” it’s a matter of what the law says.

Now, personally “I think” it doesn’t make one bit of difference in the end.

I don’t see how it matters one bit if the Sunday of the Baptism of the Lord is counted as a Sunday in Ordinary Time or not. We celebrate the Baptism and that’s what’s important. What season it “belongs to” doesn’t matter one bit, because even if the Church were to change #44 to read “Ordinary Time begins with first Vespers of the Baptism of the Lord” nothing would change–not a single thing.

As I see it, this is a “distinction without a difference.”

It makes for some nice trivia conversation here on the boards, but that’s about all.

Technically, the Baptism occurs as the last celebration of the entire Christmas season. I can see why the Church does it that way—celebrating His Baptism naturally completes the season of His birth and the following events. But, as others have already noted, He was age 30 at the time, so one could just as easily say that it makes perfect sense to begin “Ordinary Time” with that event.

O.k., I * think * I understand this. Be that as it may, the missals in our pews clearly labelled Sunday, January 12 as the Second Sunday in Ordinary Time, when in fact the first week of ordinary time began on Monday, January 13.

 

[FrDavid96]

O.k., I * think * I understand this. Be that as it may, the missals in our pews clearly labelled Sunday, January 12 as the Second Sunday in Ordinary Time, when in fact the first week of ordinary time began on Monday, January 13.

Yes, indeed. I know that they do.

Every one of them (that I’ve seen) do the same thing.
See my earlier post. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11596531&postcount=29

The Roman Missal (the current, corrected one) also states at the top of the page for the Baptism of the Lord “First Sunday of Ordinary Time.” So do the Lectionary printings.

What we must remember though is that it’s not “what someone prints as a title on a page” that answers the question. It’s in the Church’s liturgical laws where we find the definitive answer. The titles do not have any force—they only have force in the sense that they quote the law. And in this case, the titles are “not correct.” It would have been better, had the titles read “In place of the First Sunday of Ordinary Time.”

Here are my points:

1. This is a trivial question. “Is it in Ordinary Time or not?” It might be fun to talk about it, but it amounts to a distinction without a difference.*
2. The authoritative answer to the question is found in the Church’s laws—not in what’s written at the tops of the pages in the books (even official ones).
3. It doesn’t matter much on this particular issue, but there are other times when we see a conflict between “that over there” and the law itself, it might be a very important question. When we see a conflict, it’s the law that has the final say.

• *Edit: *
  Keep in mind, that I’m only writing about this particular day. No doubt, if we found that on other days (Ash Wednesday, for example) it might actually cause some problems.

 

[FrDavid96]

O.k., I * think * I understand this. Be that as it may, the missals in our pews clearly labelled Sunday, January 12 as the Second Sunday in Ordinary Time, when in fact the first week of ordinary time began on Monday, January 13.

Sorry. I misread your post.

When it says the “Second Sunday of Ordinary Time” what it really means is “the Sunday of the Second week in Ordinary Time”

Think of how it often causes confusion when we speak of “centuries”
Let’s see here, 1820 is the nineteenth century…1492 was the 15th century, but 1700 is still the 17th century…
It’s confusing. I know we can all figure it out, but it’s still confusing.

So, to keep things simple and straightforward, it’s much easier to say “19th Sunday of OT” than it is to say “18th Sunday of Ordinary Time, followed by the 19th week of OT”

 

[Elizium23]

Thanks to Fr. David and others who have clarified this for my tiny little mind to understand.

Man, the liturgical calendar is nearly as confusing as Catholic marriage laws! Was the pre-Conciliar calendar any simpler? It seems not…

 

[FrDavid96]

Thanks to Fr. David and others who have clarified this for my tiny little mind to understand.

Man, the liturgical calendar is nearly as confusing as Catholic marriage laws! Was the pre-Conciliar calendar any simpler? It seems not…

Actually, it was more confusing.

In the present calendar, we only celebrate one “day” at any given time.

In the previous calendar, the celebrations were combined (for example, there might be 3 opening Collects at one Mass).

That’s why we have Ordo’s and Catholic wall calendars to help us sort these things out. I’d be lost without mine, I can assure you!