Edited: On average, what's normal?

[manualman]

No. If that was true then absolution wouldn’t be absolution. You are totally and completely absolved of everything, every time, provided that there is no deception and you really are sorry for your sins.

…

But it’s gone.

Careful now, you’re perilously close to the evangelical protestant pitfall of “cheap grace.” What you’ve posted above seems to make nonsense of the reality of Purgatory. Absolution removes from you all of the guilt and culpability for what you’ve done. You are forgiven. It does not erase the past. The temporal effects of sin remain even after absolution. The window you threw a rock through is not made whole again.

Sexual sin DOES cause real damage in our souls that is not instantly healed in the confessional. The effects linger on, sometimes for a very long time. This is precisely why these actions are sins in the first place! Sins aren’t actions arbitrarily placed on a list, they are things that damage our ability to give and receive love. RealJuliane’s pain is an example of that. The promise of the the gospel is that we are both forgiven and have the hope of complete healing. But the complete healing isn’t instant, not magical. It often takes beyond a mere lifetime to complete (thus purgatory).

What Cat and others are trying to convey is that we men often come on in such a way that our wives perceive our interest as being in sexual gratification, not in lovemaking. If she feels she’s being used to fulfill his urges, she’s not going to be enjoying it. Husbands need to make sure that there are enough other aspects of the relationship in which she is experiencing the giving of love from him so that she doesn’t start to wonder if the sex is about the love or just him getting his jollies. And let’s be honest enough to admit that we DO have that inclination sometimes guys…

Now if I could live out what I just typed as well as I typed it, maybe we’d move past that 4 times a month category…

P.S. Mandatory reading in the marriage prep class we had over a decade ago was a book called “The Five Love Languages.” Highly recommended. If you express love in the way YOU want to receive it, there is a good chance your spouse isn’t getting the message and is feeling unloved.

 

[The_Bucket]

I said you are forgiven after confession, not that your temporal punishment is wiped clean. You need a plenary indulgence for that as I wrote elsewhere. And even when the temporal punishment is gone there remains the propensity for sin caused by our broken nature and learned habit. The practical effects remain but it’s important that one reminds him or herself that the sin is gone and what is nagging at you is an attack by the enemy.

 

[Geofarmer1]

But from where we started, and where we are now, I track backward to the way we began and that is where I believe the problems began. In having sex without commitment, I sent a message to him that I would accept that. I am a person with high ethical and moral standards, and have lived my life in an upright way, so why would my husband not respect me as a person? When I go back and consider things, that’s where I settle.

I could be wrong. My husband’s father is a narcissist and my husband also has some narcissistic traits. So it’s possible that what I am interpreting as a lack of respect due to the way we started out, is simply a lack of consideration due to the narcissistic traits.

I have followed many of your posts about your sex life your marriage over the past several years. I think you need to close the book on your past. Consider yourself forgiven by God and forgive yourself! Than forgive your husband.

Then move forward being willing to accommodate your husband and his needs while staying true to your faith and having your needs met. You may never change him. Did you marry him to change him? Or did you marry him for his good qualities? He may not see the need to change and therefore never will. If he is committed to a chaste relationship with you that is all you can ask of him.

Quit dwelling on the past and quit bringing up old forgiven sins in confession. At this point I cannot believe you are remembering truly different ways that you sinned. That is scrupulous behavior.

You cannot change the past. The only thing you can control is you and how you spend your time now.

Therapy and consoling is all well and good but forgiveness of self and of others is really what will mend relationships. That starts with you!

I would bet that he respects you and loves you more than you think he does. He is still with you, you are the mother of his children, you hold down the fort when he is traveling, and he still wants to make love with you daily after 23 years of marriage. There are a lot of divorced people is this society, that are alone, that wish they had what you had. Many men don’t show their love and appreciation of their spouses well. We tend to be physical not emotional. Yes we have needs, but we come to you for those not someone else! We see making love as meeting our needs for love and physical closeness as well as expressing our love and commitment to you.

Best wishes!

 

[Serap]

I think you’ve nailed it.

I think that often, women especially get into the habit of saying “no.” I think this often starts right after a baby arrives. The wife is tired, sore, and she feels more like a mommy than a wifey. If she goes back to work after six weeks of maternity leave, she’s even more exhausted.

So she says “No,” and the husband goes along with with it for a while because he too is tired and stressed because of the new baby and all the extra work and problems.

But then the wife continues to say “no” even after the sleeping is going better, and a routine (even a chaotic one) is established. It’s just a habit.

Calliso mentioned this in their post when he/she asked, “Is it that some people just donlt have time…or is the I donlt have time just an excuse?” I think that’s another good “nailed it” comment. Yes, “lack of time” can be just an excuse, or, as I call it, a “habit.”

Sometimes, though, time really is an issue and it’s not just an excuse. E.g., if one of the spouses is working long hours and isn’t home, there’s not a lot that either spouse can do about it other than quitting the job, and frankly, in this economy, I wouldn’t be too quick to quit any job. Of course if I had to choose between the job and the marriage, it would be to lose the job. But OTOH, a lot of marriages fail when there isn’t enough money coming in to lift the couple out of debt and poverty. A lot of issues to consider–it’s not just a simple dilemma.

Something else that can take away time is a difficult baby or child. Of course we love our difficult-to-care-for babies, but let’s be honest–if you have a child with special needs or a child who is sick a lot, or just a cranky baby who can’t seem to adjust to life outside of a womb and of course, NEVER sleeps!–it takes a LOT of time to care for that baby. So this is a case where “there’s no time for sex” ISN’T just an excuse, but a legitimate issue.

I think that if a couple truly doesn’t seem to have the time for love-making, they need to take a serious look at what is happening in their lives, and try to make some changes to allow for more time.

Like I said, it’s possible that a job that demands too much time may have to go, but boy oh boy, that’s a very tough decision to make, and I think a couple should seek the wisdom of an older couple before cavalierly deciding to quit a good job.

When it comes to the difficult child, a couple could hire a mature sitter to give them a few hours away from the crying and fussing. That’s really hard for some mothers, but I think they should give it serious thought, because they were wives before they were mothers, and they will be wives long after the baby has grown up and left home. The best thing a mother can do for her children is to love their daddy!

I’ve never said “no” to my husband ever. Even if I’m really grumpy and tired, if he asks for it, he gets it. I figure it’s just one of those things in marriage that us women need to be understanding about. \

Then again, my husband can go 2 weeks without it (if he’s busy or stressed over something), so he doesn’t ask a lot really.

Before the kids came along, I used to initiate it a lot, but now I never do. He initiates it and I comply when he wants it. It’s probably not the most romantic approach, but at least hubby can’t say he “ain’t getting it”

 

[Serap]

I have followed many of your posts about your sex life your marriage over the past several years. I think you need to close the book on your past. Consider yourself forgiven by God and forgive yourself! Than forgive your husband.

Then move forward being willing to accommodate your husband and his needs while staying true to your faith and having your needs met. You may never change him. Did you marry him to change him? Or did you marry him for his good qualities? He may not see the need to change and therefore never will. If he is committed to a chaste relationship with you that is all you can ask of him.

Quit dwelling on the past and quit bringing up old forgiven sins in confession. At this point I cannot believe you are remembering truly different ways that you sinned. That is scrupulous behavior.

You cannot change the past. The only thing you can control is you and how you spend your time now.

Therapy and consoling is all well and good but forgiveness of self and of others is really what will mend relationships. That starts with you!

I would bet that he respects you and loves you more than you think he does. He is still with you, you are the mother of his children, you hold down the fort when he is traveling, and he still wants to make love with you daily after 23 years of marriage. There are a lot of divorced people is this society, that are alone, that wish they had what you had. Many men don’t show their love and appreciation of their spouses well. We tend to be physical not emotional. Yes we have needs, but we come to you for those not someone else! We see making love as meeting our needs for love and physical closeness as well as expressing our love and commitment to you.

Best wishes!

RealJulianne often uses CAF as her “counseling tool”. She has gotten a lot out on CAF and IMO it’s helped her very much deal with “stuff”.

 

[AthenaC]

Usually more than 15 times, with the following caveats:

1. We both have a pretty high sex drive, in general
2. Right now, not nearly that much because I am only home on the weekends. And when I get home I am so exhausted that my desire for sleep puts a knife in the back of my sex drive
3. Sometimes not that much because we start to drift away from each other, until we notice and purposefully take time to reconnect

 

[Serap]

Usually more than 15 times, with the following caveats:

1. We both have a pretty high sex drive, in general
2. Right now, not nearly that much because I am only home on the weekends. And when I get home I am so exhausted that my desire for sleep puts a knife in the back of my sex drive
3. Sometimes not that much because we start to drift away from each other, until we notice and purposefully take time to reconnect

you have no kids?..sex is better then…

 

[TheRealJuliane]

RealJulianne often uses CAF as her “counseling tool”. She has gotten a lot out on CAF and IMO it’s helped her very much deal with “stuff”.

Thanks Serap. It has indeed. And I listen to every response, and take what each poster says into consideration, including that of Geofarmer. It tells me one thing, that those of us who DO post (some of us, a lot ) are being read by many people who aren’t posting, so what we say needs to be as honest and forthright as possible, as well as charitable when we respond to others. Since I have never lurked on any forum, I forget that those people are also members and are reading what I (and all of us) write.

Even posters who chide or scold me have some nugget of wisdom that I can use. If I am humble, I can usually admit that there is at least a grain in truth in their criticism. Ain’t easy, but it helps my spiritual growth.

Thanks for being there.

:hug1:

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I have followed many of your posts about your sex life your marriage over the past several years. I think you need to close the book on your past. Consider yourself forgiven by God and forgive yourself! Than forgive your husband.

Then move forward being willing to accommodate your husband and his needs while staying true to your faith and having your needs met. You may never change him. Did you marry him to change him? Or did you marry him for his good qualities? He may not see the need to change and therefore never will. If he is committed to a chaste relationship with you that is all you can ask of him.

Quit dwelling on the past and quit bringing up old forgiven sins in confession. At this point I cannot believe you are remembering truly different ways that you sinned. That is scrupulous behavior.

You cannot change the past. The only thing you can control is you and how you spend your time now.

Therapy and consoling is all well and good but forgiveness of self and of others is really what will mend relationships. That starts with you!

I would bet that he respects you and loves you more than you think he does. He is still with you, you are the mother of his children, you hold down the fort when he is traveling, and he still wants to make love with you daily after 23 years of marriage. There are a lot of divorced people is this society, that are alone, that wish they had what you had. Many men don’t show their love and appreciation of their spouses well. We tend to be physical not emotional. Yes we have needs, but we come to you for those not someone else! We see making love as meeting our needs for love and physical closeness as well as expressing our love and commitment to you.

Best wishes!

So let me ask you a question. You say you would bet that my husband loves and respects me. How would I know that? Are you saying that just the fact that he is still married to me and desires me sexually should tell me that? When he is unable or unwilling to show me any type of simple affection other than sex, should I just understand how men are, and suck it up? Offer it up? Isn’t life about compromise and letting the OTHER person know how you see things and how you feel? Or is it that one party in the marriage just has to understand, because, you know, that’s just how it is? When my husband doesn’t hug me or hold me or touch me other than sexually, should I understand that by the groping, he means that he really loves me in all ways in addition to sexually? Yes, I mean groping. When I am going about my day and the contact is to one of my lady bits, that’s groping.

Do you ever roll your eyes at your wife when she recounts her day to you? Does your face ever simply go blank when your wife expresses her dreams, her feelings, her heartaches? Would she think, “Oh, he must respect me so much!” if your face said, “I am so BORED when she talks?” Or would she get this message, “I am so BORED when she talks, when can we talk about ME again?”

Do you ever tell your wife you really appreciate what she has done for the family? Do you thank her for cooking meals, doing the shopping, the cleaning, the laundry, all the 1,001 other mundane and dare I say, BORING tasks that need to be done in order for a family to exist? I have a feeling you do. Do I know that I have done my best over the last 21 years as a wife and mom? Of course I do, but everyone needs positive feedback. I will ask you again, how am I supposed to know these things unless my husband expresses them?

If I had chosen to be a career woman, and put our kids into day care, my husband would respect me for that. I would be out there in the world, you see, doing something, achieving things, making the almighty dollar. As it is, I have no resume’ but my two lovely Catholic sons, and that’s just not enough, I guess. Sorry, do I sound bitter? You caught me on a bad day.

 

[Serap]

So let me ask you a question. You say you would bet that my husband loves and respects me. How would I know that? Are you saying that just the fact that he is still married to me and desires me sexually should tell me that? When he is unable or unwilling to show me any type of simple affection other than sex, should I just understand how men are, and suck it up? Offer it up? Isn’t life about compromise and letting the OTHER person know how you see things and how you feel? Or is it that one party in the marriage just has to understand, because, you know, that’s just how it is? When my husband doesn’t hug me or hold me or touch me other than sexually, should I understand that by the groping, he means that he really loves me in all ways in addition to sexually? Yes, I mean groping. When I am going about my day and the contact is to one of my lady bits, that’s groping.

Do you ever roll your eyes at your wife when she recounts her day to you? Does your face ever simply go blank when your wife expresses her dreams, her feelings, her heartaches? Would she think, “Oh, he must respect me so much!” if your face said, “I am so BORED when she talks?” Or would she get this message, “I am so BORED when she talks, when can we talk about ME again?”

Do you ever tell your wife you really appreciate what she has done for the family? Do you thank her for cooking meals, doing the shopping, the cleaning, the laundry, all the 1,001 other mundane and dare I say, BORING tasks that need to be done in order for a family to exist? I have a feeling you do. Do I know that I have done my best over the last 21 years as a wife and mom? Of course I do, but everyone needs positive feedback. I will ask you again, how am I supposed to know these things unless my husband expresses them?

If I had chosen to be a career woman, and put our kids into day care, my husband would respect me for that. I would be out there in the world, you see, doing something, achieving things, making the almighty dollar. As it is, I have no resume’ but my two lovely Catholic sons, and that’s just not enough, I guess. Sorry, do I sound bitter? You caught me on a bad day.

hugs Julieane

 

[The_Bucket]

So let me ask you a question. You say you would bet that my husband loves and respects me. How would I know that? Are you saying that just the fact that he is still married to me and desires me sexually should tell me that? When he is unable or unwilling to show me any type of simple affection other than sex, should I just understand how men are, and suck it up? Offer it up? Isn’t life about compromise and letting the OTHER person know how you see things and how you feel? Or is it that one party in the marriage just has to understand, because, you know, that’s just how it is? When my husband doesn’t hug me or hold me or touch me other than sexually, should I understand that by the groping, he means that he really loves me in all ways in addition to sexually? Yes, I mean groping. When I am going about my day and the contact is to one of my lady bits, that’s groping.

Everybody is different so there’s no way to really know except asking him. However I’ll answer as someone who has very strong tendencies to be self-centered at times. And I mean like 16-year-old kid self-centered.

The answer to the first series of questions is totally unknowable at least from my perspective given our histories versus yours. My wife did, however, date many more men than I dated women. No sexual history but plenty of emotional history and a bit of physical history. I really couldn’t care less about it. She said “yes” to me. Not them.

As far as the hugging versus groping, I concede that I’m guilty of that from time to time but it’s not really all about me. That’s the way many men feel loved. After all, I don’t share that kind of intimate touching with anyone else because I don’t love anyone else. I know in my mind that it’s not always what she’s looking for but it’s hard to just hold her because I love her and well, she’s smoking hot.

Do you ever roll your eyes at your wife when she recounts her day to you? Does your face ever simply go blank when your wife expresses her dreams, her feelings, her heartaches? Would she think, “Oh, he must respect me so much!” if your face said, “I am so BORED when she talks?” Or would she get this message, “I am so BORED when she talks, when can we talk about ME again?”

Sometimes I do that, though I don’t care about talking about me. But that’s a problem and I deserve to be set straight when it happens. Also note that I don’t do it INTENTIONALLY. I just kind of zone out. But most of the time I’m attentive and listening just like I’d expect her to be when I talk to her.

Do you ever tell your wife you really appreciate what she has done for the family? Do you thank her for cooking meals, doing the shopping, the cleaning, the laundry, all the 1,001 other mundane and dare I say, BORING tasks that need to be done in order for a family to exist? I have a feeling you do. Do I know that I have done my best over the last 21 years as a wife and mom? Of course I do, but everyone needs positive feedback. I will ask you again, how am I supposed to know these things unless my husband expresses them?

I tell her I appreciate her frequently, I tell her I love her and I think she’s attractive and all that good stuff. It helps that I pitch in with all that stuff too. Cooking? That’s on her. Dishes? That’s me. Laundry and cleaning the house is split.

If I had chosen to be a career woman, and put our kids into day care, my husband would respect me for that. I would be out there in the world, you see, doing something, achieving things, making the almighty dollar. As it is, I have no resume’ but my two lovely Catholic sons, and that’s just not enough, I guess. Sorry, do I sound bitter? You caught me on a bad day.

I think that’s a total fallacy in general though again, your personal mileage may vary. It’s tough having all the financial responsibility on my shoulders but it’s plenty tough to have that mundane day to day stuff on her shoulders. I have a great deal of respect for SAHMs and mothers in general. We men may be the head of the household so to speak, but they are the heart and neck. The family doesn’t function without them and neither do we men.

 

[Serap]

We men may be the head of the household so to speak, but they are the heart and neck. The family doesn’t function without them and neither do we men.

awww that 's a nice thing to write!!

 

[AthenaC]

you have no kids?..sex is better then…

We have 2 kids. But they are not involved in our sex life so I didn’t mention them.

 

[The_Bucket]

awww that 's a nice thing to write!!

I was going to write “torso” but I didn’t think that had as good a connotation.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

We have 2 kids. But they are not involved in our sex life so I didn’t mention them.

LOL!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Everybody is different so there’s no way to really know except asking him. However I’ll answer as someone who has very strong tendencies to be self-centered at times. And I mean like 16-year-old kid self-centered.

The answer to the first series of questions is totally unknowable at least from my perspective given our histories versus yours. My wife did, however, date many more men than I dated women. No sexual history but plenty of emotional history and a bit of physical history. I really couldn’t care less about it. She said “yes” to me. Not them.

As far as the hugging versus groping, I concede that I’m guilty of that from time to time but it’s not really all about me. That’s the way many men feel loved. After all, I don’t share that kind of intimate touching with anyone else because I don’t love anyone else. I know in my mind that it’s not always what she’s looking for but it’s hard to just hold her because I love her and well, she’s smoking hot.

Sometimes I do that, though I don’t care about talking about me. But that’s a problem and I deserve to be set straight when it happens. Also note that I don’t do it INTENTIONALLY. I just kind of zone out. But most of the time I’m attentive and listening just like I’d expect her to be when I talk to her.

I tell her I appreciate her frequently, I tell her I love her and I think she’s attractive and all that good stuff. It helps that I pitch in with all that stuff too. Cooking? That’s on her. Dishes? That’s me. Laundry and cleaning the house is split.

I think that’s a total fallacy in general though again, your personal mileage may vary. It’s tough having all the financial responsibility on my shoulders but it’s plenty tough to have that mundane day to day stuff on her shoulders. I have a great deal of respect for SAHMs and mothers in general. We men may be the head of the household so to speak, but they are the heart and neck. The family doesn’t function without them and neither do we men.

Thanks for the perspective. I will think about all that you’ve written. We’re probably quite a bit older than you and your wife are. I will admit that I was and am so hurt when he looks bored that I just quit talking to him about my inner world or what I have been doing. I felt defeated at the time. There was a lot of other stuff going on too, and I kind of just gave up the fight.

You say you are selfish. I beg to differ. You are on this forum, responding to this sort of question. And, you have insight that means you have at least some degree of introspection. Narcissists are not known for introspection. Believe me, I know.

 

[MrsFlapjack]

We have 2 kids. But they are not involved in our sex life so I didn’t mention them.

Very Funny!!

My husband and I rarely have sex. I never initiate, it just was something I was never comfortable in doing. We only make love maybe 3-4 times a year. He really let himself go after we got married and is now obese. I think it has hurt his sex drive a lot, and I know it has hurt my desire to have sex with him. Its amazing that we have as many kids as we do, 5, expecting the 6th early September, considering how little we make love. It has hurt our relationship though. I confess, I have turned to masturbation at times to satisfy my desires, even though I know it is a mortal sin. Someday, when I am in full communion with the church, I’ll have lots to confess to my priest.

 

[The_Bucket]

Thanks for the perspective. I will think about all that you’ve written. We’re probably quite a bit older than you and your wife are. I will admit that I was and am so hurt when he looks bored that I just quit talking to him about my inner world or what I have been doing. I felt defeated at the time. There was a lot of other stuff going on too, and I kind of just gave up the fight.

You say you are selfish. I beg to differ. You are on this forum, responding to this sort of question. And, you have insight that means you have at least some degree of introspection. Narcissists are not known for introspection. Believe me, I know.

Just because I have introspection doesn’t mean I have the fortitude to follow through on addressing the problems. That’s my issue. And it makes it hurt all the more actually. I know I have these issues, I know they are hurting people I love and I don’t care enough apparently to make concerted and sustained efforts to address them.

I’m sure there is an age gap between us and I don’t doubt that the amount of life experience you’ve had plays a big role here. Maybe he’s in a mid-life funk or something, I don’t know. And it’s always harder to change after so many years of learned behavior. But it’s never too late! My father was married to a Catholic woman for nearly 25 years and had six kids before he converted from Judaism.

 

[Geofarmer1]

Sorry, do I sound bitter? You caught me on a bad day.

Sorry!

I just know that often I may have some of the above mentioned tendencies and it does not mean that I don’t love my wife.

I have worked on those things that have caused hurt in the past and have made improvements. No, compromise or moving to middle is not too much to ask. Nor is simple communication. How did you communicate early in your marriage? Can you move back toward something that worked then?

Again I am sorry!

 

[Moore11]

Thanks Serap. It has indeed. And I listen to every response, and take what each poster says into consideration, including that of Geofarmer. It tells me one thing, that those of us who DO post (some of us, a lot ) are being read by many people who aren’t posting, so what we say needs to be as honest and forthright as possible, as well as charitable when we respond to others. Since I have never lurked on any forum, I forget that those people are also members and are reading what I (and all of us) write.

Even posters who chide or scold me have some nugget of wisdom that I can use. If I am humble, I can usually admit that there is at least a grain in truth in their criticism. Ain’t easy, but it helps my spiritual growth.

Thanks for being there.

:hug1:

I want to add to this as well. I haven’t been here as long as some but I have enjoyed your posts. My impression of you is a faith filled woman who is levelheaded and wise. But I also have another impression. And that is one of your husband. I don’t know you or him, nor is my impression based on any sort of fact at all. But we should always be careful when we vent in public like this. Think of the impression you give of your man, your husband, yourself because he is a part of you, you are one.
I’m not telling you that you have badmouthed someone or even that you shouldn’t or don’t have a right to vent here. But just be careful.
Please please please, don’t be offended.