(Edited) Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace urges major economic reform

[Bartolome_Casas]

The above titles is from an article in the National Catholic Register.

Here’s the link to page, which also includes the full text of the document issued by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.

ncronline.org/news/justice/pontifical-council-justice-and-peace-urges-major-economic-reform

This document presents a world view different from what Conservatives in the USA promote, doesn’t it?

Who is right? Conservatives in the USA, or the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace?

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Well, they acknowledge that Communism doesn’t work … but only in passing … as if Communism just wasn’t done quite right. And crony capitalism / crony socialism / crony tribalism doesn’t work. And bureaucracy doesn’t work.

National banking and the creation of fiat money doesn’t work … read “End the Fed” by Ron Paul … in fact … too much new world order creates paper money and allows misapplied government intervention and hyper inflation … that created the current mess we are in right now.

Well, maybe before they impose some other well-intentioned new world order, they could provide an example by straightening out the mess in Haiti.

Should be a piece of cake. I mean it is the perfect “test case” … a small country on an island in a tropical paradise.

See the parallel thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8837992#post8837992

Here is one quote from the Pontifical report:

"After World War II, national economies made progress, albeit with enormous sacrifices for millions, indeed billions of people who, as producers and entrepreneurs on the one hand and as savers and consumers on the other, had** put their confidence in a steady and progressive expansion of money supply and investment in line with opportunities for real growth of the economy.

Since the 1990s, we have seen that money and credit instruments worldwide have grown more rapidly than the accumulation of wealth in the economy, even adjusting for inflation. From this came the formation of pockets of excessive liquidity and speculative bubbles which later turned into a series of solvency and confidence crises that have spread and followed one another over the years.**"

[that could have been taken right out of Ron Paul’s book]

Here is another direct quote:

"In countries and areas where the most elementary goods such as health, food and shelter are still lacking, more than a billion people are forced to survive on an average income of less than a dollar a day."

[These horrible places are places that have totalitarian governments and lack private property rights. Some of the places where people do the best are tiny places with no natural resources … such as Singapore, for example … but have fairly open governments.]

 

[Claire_C]

Here is one quote from the Pontifical report:

"After World War II, national economies made progress, albeit with enormous sacrifices for millions, indeed billions of people who, as producers and entrepreneurs on the one hand and as savers and consumers on the other, had** put their confidence in a steady and progressive expansion of money supply and investment in line with opportunities for real growth of the economy.

Since the 1990s, we have seen that money and credit instruments worldwide have grown more rapidly than the accumulation of wealth in the economy, even adjusting for inflation. From this came the formation of pockets of excessive liquidity and speculative bubbles which later turned into a series of solvency and confidence crises that have spread and followed one another over the years.**"

Thank you! Everyone always goes on and on about the “capitalism can be bad” parts of these Vatican statements, and they conveniently ignore the “so are most other systems” parts and the “capitalism based on real economic goods not government-backed speculation works pretty well” parts. It is a call for a balanced approach, and while it does call for some kind of global finance system (largely unworkable right now most likely, especially with fiat money) it also reiterates the Church’s centuries-old belief in subsidiarity. And American conservatives are calling for subsidiarity. They are not perfect, but increasing bureaucracy will not solve anything, and it only drains money out of the economy and the mouths of the poor.

 

[Claire_C]

This document presents a world view different from what Conservatives in the USA promote, doesn’t it?

Who is right? Conservatives in the USA, or the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace?

Wow, a little smug? Don’t forget that this, and all Catholic social and economic teaching also consistently calls for subsidiarity, or handling affairs as close to the problem as possible, with as little centralized control as possible. It also criticizes inflation, currency and commodity bubbles, and speculation. There’s a little something in there to make people of every political persuasion think twice. Read the whole thing, and also read all the economic encyclicals starting from Rerum Novarum.

Here’s another take on it: youtube.com/watch?v=DBwRMFzexh0&feature=plcp&context=C3f0e680UDOEgsToPDskJz1qJUg4ZROPZsH9AMLfuV

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Take a good hard look at the countries in the world where the people are best off and where there is religious freedom … here are some lists … go over the lists.

Take a look, also, at the worst countries. Which ones would YOU want to model if you were starting from scratch.

AND you can go back in time, and take a look at countries that slipped … what where they like before they started to slide?

Because the United States is slipping from the home of the free to the home of the Euro-style bureaucracy.

In the index of freedom, compiled by Freedom House, the USA is no longer #1.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_freedom_indices

The U.S. has slid down to #10:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

Just think of the bs suffered by California with that stupid smelt business … that caused farmers to be wiped out. Or the “permitorium” in Louisiana. Or the freeze in Alaska oil development. and on and on and on.

We are behind Singapore where dopers suffer capital punishment and if you are a litterbug, you get flogged.

Anyway, visit that second link and click around.

India is #123 … but in some things, they are ahead of us! [they can convert their automobiles to CNG, but the EPA fines the United States people $5000 per day if we try it. ]

heritage.org/index/ranking

South Korea is #31.

The list seems a little short. I thought there were 196 or 206 countries in the world. Their list was only 184.

[Yup. I spend too much time thinking about how Estonia might rank higher than the Associated Free State of Puerto Rico and like that.]

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Haiti is #142.

Another good source is Freedom House:

www.freedomhouse.org

freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=594

excerpt:

On January 13, 2011, Freedom House released its findings from the latest edition of Freedom in the World, the annual survey of global political rights and civil liberties. According to the survey’s findings, 2010 was the fifth consecutive year in which global freedom suffered a decline—the longest period of setbacks for freedom in the nearly 40-year history of the report. These declines threaten gains dating to the post–Cold War era in Africa, Latin America, Asia, and the former Soviet bloc. The latest survey hightlights the increasing truculence of the world’s most powerful authoritarian regimes, which has coincided with a growing inability or unwillingness on the part of the world’s democracies to meet the authoritarian challenge.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

The above titles is from an article in the National Catholic Register.

Here’s the link to page, which also includes the full text of the document issued by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.

ncronline.org/news/justice/pontifical-council-justice-and-peace-urges-major-economic-reform

This document presents a world view different from what Conservatives in the USA promote, doesn’t it?

Who is right? Conservatives in the USA, or the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace?

Here is another quote:

“Nonetheless, it should be reiterated that the process of globalisation with its positive aspects is at the root of the great development of the world economy in the twentieth century. It is worth recalling that between 1900 and 2000 the world population increased almost fourfold while the growth in wealth produced worldwide was much greater, resulting in a significant rise of average per capita income. At the same time, however, the distribution of wealth did not become fairer but in many cases worsened.”

Even despite two horrendous world wars and the Korean War and the Vietnam War and the victory of Communism over Russia and a dozen other countries.

It was the rise of or acknowledgement of totalitarianism that led to unfair “distribution of wealth”.

 

[Joe_Hill]

Because the United States is slipping from the home of the free to the home of the Euro-style bureaucracy.

The implication is that European people are not free.

You have every right to love your country, but please refrain from slandering other countries to express your national pride.

I am not sure which lies you have been fed to you about life in European countries (which vary quite considerably) I can assure you as somebody who has lived in several European countries, that we are indeed free.

Sadly, the freedoms that americans have lost, are a direct result of the Patriot Act and the so-called War on Terror.

It is also what has been the greatest oppression on Europe in my own lifetime.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

The implication is that European people are not free.

You have every right to love your country, but please refrain from slandering other countries to express your national pride.

I am not sure which lies you have been fed to you about life in European countries (which vary quite considerably) I can assure you as somebody who has lived in several European countries, that we are indeed free.

Sadly, the freedoms that americans have lost, are a direct result of the Patriot Act and the so-called War on Terror.

It is also what has been the greatest oppression on Europe in my own lifetime.

Reminds me of a old joke discussion between an American and a Russian. The American said he was free to criticize President Reagan. The Russian said he also was free to criticize President Reagan.

From your own personal perspective, would you prefer living under Nazi occupation? There is an American colony in France … right overlooking the beach. Nice spot. They speak eloquently. Albeit quietly.

I note that you live in the UK. You know … World War II was a close thing. And even World War I.

So, you don’t have to like us, but please, if you don’t want to like us, how about stop tapping into our treasury to bail you out of your European wars. And since you are a Brit, perhaps you could permanently recall your “employees” at 30 Rockefeller Plaza … the “British Information Service”. Those are the fellows who used such skillful persuasion to get the United States into World War I and World War II.

 

[St_Francis]

The above titles is from an article in the National Catholic Register.

Here’s the link to page, which also includes the full text of the document issued by the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace.

ncronline.org/news/justice/pontifical-council-justice-and-peace-urges-major-economic-reform

This document presents a world view different from what Conservatives in the USA promote, doesn’t it?

Who is right? Conservatives in the USA, or the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace?

There are differences between what this document suggests and what US liberals espouse, too.

 

[St_Francis]

Reminds me of a old joke discussion between an American and a Russian. The American said he was free to criticize President Reagan. The Russian said he also was free to criticize President Reagan.

From your own personal perspective, would you prefer living under Nazi occupation? There is an American colony in France … right overlooking the beach. Nice spot. They speak eloquently. Albeit quietly.

I note that you live in the UK. You know … World War II was a close thing. And even World War I.

So, you don’t have to like us, but please, if you don’t want to like us, how about stop tapping into our treasury to bail you out of your European wars. And since you are a Brit, perhaps you could permanently recall your “employees” at 30 Rockefeller Plaza … the “British Information Service”. Those are the fellows who used such skillful persuasion to get the United States into World War I and World War II.

I am American, but my parents and grandparents were affected by the world wars, so I am aware of what they were all about, but I have to say that repeatedly having it brought it whenever there is a discussion between the US and Europe is getting a bit old. Yeah, some Europeans messed up and we bailed them out. But that was some time ago and not very related to the current topic. Moreover, the Europeans have made a concerted and good-faith effort to keep this from happening again, and have so far suceeded.

I know I would not be happy about someone’s bring up stuff about my past over and over again. I think that when a person or a people repents and tries to change that their previous bad acts might be laid to rest.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

I am American, but my parents and grandparents were affected by the world wars, so I am aware of what they were all about, but I have to say that repeatedly having it brought it whenever there is a discussion between the US and Europe is getting a bit old. Yeah, some Europeans messed up and we bailed them out. But that was some time ago and not very related to the current topic. Moreover, the Europeans have made a concerted and good-faith effort to keep this from happening again, and have so far suceeded.

I know I would not be happy about someone’s bring up stuff about my past over and over again. I think that when a person or a people repents and tries to change that their previous bad acts might be laid to rest.

The EU is disintegrating even as we speak.

 

[Joe_Hill]

Reminds me of a old joke discussion between an American and a Russian. The American said he was free to criticize President Reagan. The Russian said he also was free to criticize President Reagan.

So I now live in the USSR?

From your own personal perspective, would you prefer living under Nazi occupation?

I’m sorry. Now I am somehow advocating Nazism?

I note that you live in the UK.

Well right now I am living in Italy, but yes i am British. Finally you are addressing ME and not somebody living under a totalitarian regime.

The fact that you equate the UK and the EU with Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia seems to suggest that you have indeed been fed slandeous misinformation.

I hope one day that you learn the truth about Europe and life in it.

So, you don’t have to like us, but please, if you don’t want to like us,

Where did I suggest I didn’t like Americans.

On the contrary, I like lots of Americans.

I just happen not to like misinformation being spread about moy own country and my European cousins.

How you can reach the conclusion that this means I dislike Americans is beyond me.



I hope you are not just trying to accuse me of your own behaviour.

That, may I remind you, is bearing false witness.

Peace

 

[Monte_RCMS]

No, I am addressing the issue of freedom.

You don’t like the United States; fine. But to quote one of our now retired politicians … “Do you speak German?” … No? Well, you’re welcome."

And it was not just WWI and WWII; it was also the takeover of half of Europe by Russia and the continued opposition to that by the United States in what is called the Cold War, which wasn’t always cold. For which the United States took casualties, that we didn’t really need to. So, that brings right up almost to the current day. A couple of decades ago, at any rate.

I love Italy. But didn’t they just now attack Libya where they get their natural gas from. That was brilliant. [that’s sarcasm] [And why on earth was the United States involved in attacking Libya?]

Well, you could also tone down: “It is also what has been the greatest oppression on Europe in my own lifetime”.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Well right now I am living in Italy, but yes i am British. Finally you are addressing ME and not somebody living under a totalitarian regime.

The fact that you equate the UK and the EU with Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia seems to suggest that you have indeed been fed slandeous misinformation

These guys are living in a dream world. I would never trust information coming from anyone that would promote a country that proudly sits on a Native American grave yard. And i certainly would never equate the economic success of 10 percent of the population as proof that an economic system works. The Bottom line is that these Guys love the kind of state protected Capitalism that they are free to exploit at everybody else’s expense, and they get afraid for their souls every-time the Church criticizes its abuses.

 

[Joe_Hill]

No, I am addressing the issue of freedom.

Yes, and I am correcting you. We are as free as you are in the US.

You don’t like the United States; fine.

Please show me where i said that.

You are constructing a straw man argument.

It is

And yes, the draconian laws brought in by Europea governments in the name of “War on Terror” are our greatest loss of freedom in recent years.

I live here in Europe and that is the consesus of people I live and work with.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

These guys are living in a dream world. I would never trust information coming from anyone that would promote a country that proudly sits on a Native American grave yard. And i certainly would never equate the economic success of 10 percent of the population as proof that an economic system works. The Bottom line is that these Guys love the kind of state protected Capitalism that they are free to exploit at everybody else’s expense, and they get afraid for their souls every-time the Church criticizes its abuses.

[Would it be uncharitable for me to go wayyy back in history to point out that it was folks from Europe who settled here and caused those “Native American grave yards”?]

However, as we say, no never mind … when the Spanish finish with their windandsolar powered bankruptcy and when the Greeks finish with their full-retirement pensions at age 37 and when Germany finishes decommissioning their nuclear reactors, and the French figure out how to stop wing cracks in their Airbuses, and Italy … maybe Italy will return the proper real estate to the Papal States, etc … I am sure the United States will, once again, step into the breach and bail out Europe.

My grandparents came to the United States to escape the instability in Europe.

And you will be welcomed here as well.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

My grandparents came to the United States to escape the instability in Europe.

And you will be welcomed here as well.

Where there is no National Heath Service; and private companies make a monopoly out of life and death at the expense of those who cannot afford it. No thanks.

 

[Brendan]

Where there is no National Heath Service; and private companies make a monopoly out of life and death at the expense of those who cannot afford it. No thanks.

I know of no country where there exists a private monoploy on health care. Just about every free countries have a plurality of health care choices. Canada would be the only exception that I can think of, and it’s monoploy is governmental. Most others (including the US) have a combination of public and private, with the private sector also including non-profit religious institutions.

Did you have a particular example in mind?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I know of no country where there exists a private monoploy on health care. Just about every free countries have a plurality of health care choices. Canada would be the only exception that I can think of, and it’s monoploy is governmental. Most others (including the US) have a combination of public and private, with the private sector also including non-profit religious institutions.

Did you have a particular example in mind?

So your saying that there is morally sufficient national health care in America? I am not talking about “we will do what we can with the little crumbs with got” kind of health care; i am talking about real ** dignified health care** that is offered to everybody and is in principle morally sufficient for everybody’s use despite your economic position in society.

Like the NHS in London or better (although the NHS in London can have its problems too, when there is cuts in funding).

If you can provide evidence of that then i apologize. All these people in America that are genuinely concerned about health care must be pathological liars. But i have to say its quite amazing and strange that people would spend so much money going to a private doctor when free health care is so good and morally sufficient in America!! I don’t know. The rich and the American people in general are being unjustifiably attacked, and as usual its by the poor.

Something tells me i should stay London.